Quick cam question

[David s]

Wonder if any out there can give their opinion of a pair of cams.

I am looking to upgrade my Cobs 460ci cam and I am looking at Competition Cams Xtreme Energy Hydraulic either 274 or the 284.

Remembering the UK we have more that our fair share of bendy twisty roads and very little long straights, and a lot of sitting at lights and behind traffic, I wonder if the 284 might be an over kill.

The engine spec is:-
Std 460 block honed
Holly 750
KB 137 pistons flat top with valve cut outs
Edelbrock Performer RPM inlet
Edelbrock RPM Performer alloy heads 75cc chamber complete with 2.19 inlet and 1.76 ex valves.
Scorpion roller rockers which I believe are 1.73 ratio
Comp is approx 9.75 to 10

Just wondering if any of you use any of these cams in the 460ci in the Cob and what you think of them before I buy.

Thanks

David
UK

[blykins]

Where would you like the powerband to be?

The 284 cam would be more suitable for a Cobra...and would put the peak hp at around 5500. You would still have a very streetable engine, with good low to mid range power.

The 274 would be more suited for a lower-rpm application where you need more bottom end grunt..i.e. a heavier car with higher rearend ratios, or a pickup truck.

Keep in mind that Comp Cams' catalog is oriented so that the comments apply to the smallest engine in that particular family. In your case, the notes are for the 429 engine. An engine with 460+ cubic inches needs a larger cam because it has more cylinder volume to work with.

[Wbulk]

You can go to this page on CompCams website, fill in the information and they will respond with a recommendation within a day or so.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/C...amHelpNew.aspx

You can also download CamQuest for free and have it on your PC. It will give you recommendations based on the criteria you enter. I have found that CamQuest may not have the latest cams available.

[blykins]

For a cam selection, it would be worth your while to talk to an actual engine builder....I'd be more than happy to help you.

Comp's tech line is nothing more than a couple of guys reading right out of Comp's catalog. They can tell you no more than what you can read for yourself off of the Comp Cams website. In addition to that, you can call them with an application, get their answer, then call back and speak to someone different; they will give you a totally different answer.

Their software is pretty neat as it gives you access to their whole catalog to choose from. However, the results are greatly exaggerated at the least with results being about 8-10% higher than actual dyno results.

[David s]

Thanks for the replies so far chaps, as for the engine builder, that was me.
I have best part of 37 years building engines, restoring classic cars etc and have a fairly good idea on paper which cam would be best out of the 2 for the engine in a normal weight car.

However real time experience cant be beat, thus the question to you guys.

Not many run the 385 series BB over here so real info is limited.

I have had a real look around comp cams web site as you suggested and know how the info can be, shall we say engineered to look good, thus my hope that someone might have run one one here, you know with the sort of reply:-

" cam says lumpy idle but was hopless at the lights" etc

Anyway, any info is greatly received

Thanks

[madmaxx]

Unless you are building engines every week, 52 weeks a year you aint an engine builder you are a shade tree mechanic. If you were an engine builder you would not have asked the question.

[Wbulk]

Respect, respect!! No need for that.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by David s

Thanks for the replies so far chaps, as for the engine builder, that was me.
I have best part of 37 years building engines, restoring classic cars etc and have a fairly good idea on paper which cam would be best out of the 2 for the engine in a normal weight car.

However real time experience cant be beat, thus the question to you guys.

Not many run the 385 series BB over here so real info is limited.

I have had a real look around comp cams web site as you suggested and know how the info can be, shall we say engineered to look good, thus my hope that someone might have run one one here, you know with the sort of reply:-

" cam says lumpy idle but was hopless at the lights" etc

Anyway, any info is greatly received

Thanks

David,

That cam would give you a nice lopey idle but would still offer good street manners. I think it would be a good choice for you.

[David s]

Originally Posted by madmaxx

Unless you are building engines every week, 52 weeks a year you aint an engine builder you are a shade tree mechanic. If you were an engine builder you would not have asked the question.

And thank you to for your kind comments, it is so nice to know that we have a great expanse of water between our 2 great countries and it keep you over there, however I do feel sorry for you polite gentlemen on here who are prepared to help out and have to put up with these sort of people?

Obviously your reading is very suspect so I have written this very slowly as I suspect you can’t read very fast.

Needless to say if you had read my comments and location I am UK based and have years of experience rebuilding English classics and engines, the 460ci is a new concept (please ask you fellow members on here what that means) therefore no one is that good that they should not ask for help or direction or even first hand experience.

Once again many thanks to the helpfully members on here.

[RICK LAKE]

David S David there are alot of buildup of 429-460 motors in car mags like Hot-Rod, Car Craft, 4 wheeler, Master engine builder, and Ford legendary. Form what you are saying, a low rpm torque motor would be about right. Where the heads and the intake manifold ported? You can advance or retard the camshaft to move the power ranges around also. I would also ask you about the oiling system of the motor and oil pan. If the roads are short and alot of turns, the oiling of the motor is most important. 7-8 quart system, Large oil filter with high flow. HP1 comes to mind. If running an oil cooler in the front of the car #12 cooler lines with high flow connectors.
Are you looking for a nasty exhaust sound? Run a camshaft with an LSA of 110 or less. Your exhaust will be the BIG power killer of your car unless they are race pipes with no to little backpressure of the motor.
If you can find the SCJ 429 specs I think you will be happy with them. Side notes, I help with a SCJ car that had a 460 block and bottom end and a 429 heads and intake The max safe rpms where 6,500. We had rod problems over this. This was a stock bottom end with only ARP bolts and nuts. There is alot of weight flying around in the bottom end. Also watch the dampener, we had one come apart from racing. With a little head work and cleaning of ports we made over 420 HP and 480ft of torque. All the power is in the heads and intake. Ran a 780 Holley with dual feed and only single pump. The double pump had 50CC pump and the car bogged everytime they opened. We changed cam profiles, went to 30CC pumps and found that the single worked the best. There are some oiling modes you should look for. Some guys run a extra supply line in the lifter valley to the back of the motor for better oiling of rods #7 & #8. We broke #7 and it went through the side of the 429 CJ block and the crack, was not repairable. It did make a big splash off the bridge and scared the fisherman. I would tell you to go with the smalled camshaft, limit the rpm range, extend the life of the motor for many years and have limited maintaintance. 5,500 rpm chip in the MSD. This motor will smoke the rear tires off the car with little problem. Watch out if you are running rubber hoses in the car and have methonal in the gas. We have 15% and it is eating the rubber out of the cars here. Rick L. Ps you guys still repair some of the best piston motors in the world like Packards and Merlins, Now their is a noise I could live with. Pss don't mind Max, he's off his meds again

[Tom Wells]

David,

On the off chance you aren't familiar with these web sites specializing in the 385 series, be sure to consult them:

http://www.460ford.com/forum/

http://www.429-460.com/

http://www.highflowdynamics.net/

On the last URL above there are some very good lubrication mods you can make to the block. I had these done for my most recent 557.

Hope this helps,

Tom

[David s]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

David S David there are alot of buildup of 429-460 motors in car mags like Hot-Rod, Car Craft, 4 wheeler, Master engine builder, and Ford legendary. Form what you are saying, a low rpm torque motor would be about right. Where the heads and the intake manifold ported? You can advance or retard the camshaft to move the power ranges around also. I would also ask you about the oiling system of the motor and oil pan. If the roads are short and alot of turns, the oiling of the motor is most important. 7-8 quart system, Large oil filter with high flow. HP1 comes to mind. If running an oil cooler in the front of the car #12 cooler lines with high flow connectors.
Are you looking for a nasty exhaust sound? Run a camshaft with an LSA of 110 or less. Your exhaust will be the BIG power killer of your car unless they are race pipes with no to little backpressure of the motor.
If you can find the SCJ 429 specs I think you will be happy with them. Side notes, I help with a SCJ car that had a 460 block and bottom end and a 429 heads and intake The max safe rpms where 6,500. We had rod problems over this. This was a stock bottom end with only ARP bolts and nuts. There is alot of weight flying around in the bottom end. Also watch the dampener, we had one come apart from racing. With a little head work and cleaning of ports we made over 420 HP and 480ft of torque. All the power is in the heads and intake. Ran a 780 Holley with dual feed and only single pump. The double pump had 50CC pump and the car bogged everytime they opened. We changed cam profiles, went to 30CC pumps and found that the single worked the best. There are some oiling modes you should look for. Some guys run a extra supply line in the lifter valley to the back of the motor for better oiling of rods #7 & #8. We broke #7 and it went through the side of the 429 CJ block and the crack, was not repairable. It did make a big splash off the bridge and scared the fisherman. I would tell you to go with the smalled camshaft, limit the rpm range, extend the life of the motor for many years and have limited maintaintance. 5,500 rpm chip in the MSD. This motor will smoke the rear tires off the car with little problem. Watch out if you are running rubber hoses in the car and have methonal in the gas. We have 15% and it is eating the rubber out of the cars here. Rick L. Ps you guys still repair some of the best piston motors in the world like Packards and Merlins, Now their is a noise I could live with. Pss don't mind Max, he's off his meds again

Rick
Many thanks for the very useful info. I have read a few articles in a few mags which I pick up over here, thus my indecision of the choice between the two; again my question to you experienced lads over there which you prefer.

Ok, should also add, the Cobra runs 2” primaries running to open side pipes approx 4” dia, very similar to the ones sold by Finishline. I have had a good look inside them with an endoscope and there isn’t a lot of baffling, just perimeter perforated tube internally

Oil pump is a high volume type, runs approx 70psi when cold and 50 to 60 when hot. At LeMans classic last year we were stuck in traffic and the air temp was 95 to 105 F ( we work in 0c so I hope the calc to 0f is correct, the road surface was melting)

Rad is purpose made for the application by a great company called RadTech and the car has never overheated yet in 4 years.

Rods, crank etc were all supplied by PAW and pistons fitted and the assbly balanced at the time. I did do a check and all tolerances were very good. Chrome molly plasma rings

All bolts, nuts etc throughout are ARP

Push rods are 3/8”

Heads to inlet were blue printed and a little smoothing carried out.

The block valley oil ways were cleaned up to aid oil drop back to the sump.

16 row oil cooler is run. Standard size sump but it is very deep.

Oil filter is a Coopers, not sure if a high flow or not.

I run a 4 degree crank gear straight.

Holly is out of the box although I have fitted a secondary block and have been playing with jets and secondary springs, not bad now.

Rick, that has given me another bit to consider, thanks to all. If you like Merlin’s and you mean the type that were wedged in a Supermarine Spitfire air frame then you would love the Goodwood Revival I attend, classic car racing era 1933 to 1966 and WW11 air displays with low flying Spitfires, Mustangs, Lancaster Bombers etc, have a look at the web site, an unbelievable event, and the majority of people dress in period costume. I do all 3 days and I would sell the wife so not to miss this.


http://www.goodwood.co.uk/revival/ph...e-revival.aspx

By the way I understand what you mean about Max, we have Care in the Community schemes running as well

[RICK LAKE]

David S. I hope she is not standing behind you with a rolling pin,
As far as modes for the oiling system I agree with them except for the distributor oiling and the oil filter screw mount into the block.
IMO way to large of a hole for the distributor oiling hole. IMO this should be drilled and tapped with an allen head and drill a .015-.020" hole in the center of the allen. If you have a dremmel tool, grind a small slot into the hole to make it spray. Have the slots go up and down to spray the area and gears.
Oil filter screw housing, If this part is a machined or billet part I could go with the .060" thickness. If the part is cast, I would not want less than .080" thickness. Smooth out and flare ends to get max flow.
Rod bolts, Just check with ARP for the correct torque of them. They have stretch bolts on some rods now and they need to be done with a special gauge. The BBC rods get a .006". This must be done 3 times before installing for final assembly. Pain in the butt, took 3 hours to do just this simple task for 8 rods.
Side pipes sound good but loud, bring ear plugs.
Not sure if your roads are like the ones in NJ but make sure you have a 4.5" ground clearance between oil pan and street. This is with 2 people in car.
For that last part, I am hoping in a couple of years to finish the bucket list a have which is a short one.
Go to Fla and get a ride in a P-51D trainer Mustang
Want to see Glasier Girl. P-38's are just sweet to see in the air
Goto the Packard plant and do the tour. There is a shop over there that rebuilds them for air planes over here.
3 day goodwill show would be nice but, no period correct cloths.
Hoping in 2 years to come visit with a stop by at Ireland and Scottland.
Hoping to win a big lottery and use money to have some parts recased for Merlin motors. Owning a P-38 would be nice too. I found one, looking to see what the owners want to do with it. It sitting on a pole is no place for a plane to be stuck and sitting out in the weather. At least it is paint every year. Time will tell. It's a dream. Got to go Rick

[David s]

Rick and others,

Many thanks for al the help, puts me in the right direction with the modifications.

The oiling mods may have to wait as the engine is complete and in the car and I didn’t really want to do a complete strip, however I didn't know about the ARP rod bolts. Although the engine has only been together a short time the bits were purchased abut 10 years ago so I'm not sure when this detail with ARP came in.

If you get to the UK in September make Goodwood a must, doesn’t worry about period wear, about 20% don’t, but it is a lot more fun.

They don’t do it any more but they once flew a Spitfire down the main straight, after someone decided it was a bit too near the mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnc78LW7V1U


As for selling the wife, I thought that is what eBay was for?

Cheers

David

[Tom Wells]

Rick,

Best I could do...

http://www.stclairphoto-imaging.com/...g/P51_swf.html



Tom

[RICK LAKE]

Tom Wells Thanks so much for the picture. You just got me in trouble, next P-51C or D I am going for a cruise. The info is in the cockpit, taxi speed, flaps, manifold pressures, air speed, speed for wheels up. O-YEAH I going to jail. 75 pounds of manifold pressure with 100 octane. I know it was about 85-100 when they had 130 octane and water injection. For a bunch of soda cans they really are beautiful to see and just look at. Got to go get Mega tickets and powerball. Should be able to find a nice plane for 3-5 million. Thanks again Rick