460 usability?

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by sspano01

i've been researching possible oil issues with the 385 after my rod bearing failure. I did not turn up any conclusive/smoking-gun issue.

I think the root of my issue was that i burned out my oil. I had about 10 track days on it and was running a time-trial race and keeping the engine up at high rpms (about 5000-5500) for a period of time. The oil temperature was climbing near 270, it was only conventional oil, and i did not have an oil cooler.

so, in 2013, i'll have the oil cooler running, and change my oil after every 2-4 track days at the most. i think that will fix my issues. and the aviaid oil pan looks much better than the canton pan and its design should provide some better oil control over the canton.

i'll also have another car to hammer on ready by the summer so I wont be beating up my cobra so much.

I also think you used up your oil, conventional oil is only good for about 250 degrees,then it begins to burn, synthetic oil is good for about 300 degrees....I run synthetic in my race car with oil temps at times up to 270 and the car has an oil cooler....I change the oil filter after 2 track days/races and then after 2 more, change the oil and filter,so far, no oil related problems....
I would not consider using conventional oil in a n engine for track use...

David

[sspano01]

I was running an accusump, not to diverge the topic here too much.

I think as David says, I completely ruined the oil. I didn't think it would be too bad because I wasnt going that "Fast", but then I started going faster and more RPMs and such and such.

Next year, when I take it out, I will follow David's advice. I was considering using a Brad Penn oil (conventional?) but absolutely fluid and filter change after every 2 track days, not after every 8-10 :P

On the plus side.....my engine rebuild is done, installed, and running great now! Pulled it four weeks ago, put it back in on Friday. Got it running Sunday, a few small items and its running great today!

Now onto 2013

[Dominik]

I also agree with David. If you read 270 deg your oil was probably more like 340 deg at the bearing surface. That killed the mineral oil.

I haven't tried an accusump yet, but generally with very sticky tires (especially sliks) I feel that you need dry-sump to control oil.

[sspano01]

Right!! Bearings were probably much hotter! Didn't consider that part as well.
I should have kept that oil and sent it for analysis to see what they would have said about it.
I'm not going all out in the edge of traction in my cobra either, I've gotten it up to about 1.2g lateral - might go a little more next year.

I rented a miata (gasp) and ran it at limerock 2 weeks ago. Zero acceleration, but that could make turns, read nearly 1.5g on a few turns. And it wasn't as scary as the big block cobra - but that's part of the fun of the cobra too!

[sspano01]

I just realized.... My accusump is still charged with the oil from NJMP when I spun the rod bearing. Maybe I should send it for analysis to see if they can tell me if it is still oil or just wax sludge. Any recommendations for a lab?

[Dominik]

Lab? I can't speak for the US, but in SA we give oil for testing to Caterpillar dealer.

[Tom Wells]

sspano01,

Whoa! Didn't even think about that!

I agree with David about the freshness of the oil.

Since I automatically put in new oil and filter (Ford FL-1HP) before each track day it didn't occur to me to mention it...

Sorry 'bout that!

Tom

[mdross1]

Back when racing big block Chev had the same concerns running engine hard for long period without oil control not enough oil could keep the sump submerged,it was staying up top too long.

[Xack]

Keep a large gas can (or 2) in the boot! No worries mate!

;D

Xack

[scottsdale Bob]

Hi Quintum,
I have a West Coast with a mild (450 HP) 460 in Scottsdale. I would be happy to let you take it for a spin.... aaaah I mean ride, when I'm out there end of Feb. if you want. The West Coast is a heavy car by Cobra standards, about 3100 Lbs. with driver but I think you will see that 450 or so HP is plenty for a fun street car with all the Torque these motors make. PM me if you want.
Bob

[Gary(SF)]

Originally Posted by Quintum

Hello Everyone.

I am doing a bit of research before I start my kit (it'll be a year or two down the road). The current kit I am looking at is an FFR IV, and I have a few questions regarding using a 460 block.

Currently I am looking at doing a 460cc (maybe stroked out to say a 482) engine. Nothing to wild, hydraulic cam, run on 91 octane (Phoenix, AZ). While trying to get as close to 600 hp if possible (If the engine were to be over 600 hp, I'm sure I could find someone to twist my arm).

What I'm wondering is what will this engine run like? Daily driver possible? From what I understand this wont be a problem.

Gas mileage? Reason for asking is that I will be wanting to do some driving around the state and maybe even cross country. So if I go to L.A. from phx az, for the weekend will I need to hit up the gas station 20 times or maybe 6 times?

Heat issues? Living in phx az, it can get pretty hot here. Will there be issues with driving the car around night time when its still 110 out? or even better yet, during the day time sitting at lights?

The fit? 460 block is pretty big. I was wondering how the fit is for a FFR kit? Will I need to take the engine out to change the spark plugs? Or take off an engine mount and tilt the engine so I can remove the starter (yea don't laugh, had to do that once...)?

Thanks for all your input.

Warm Regards,
Dave

Kinda late to this thread, I'm a new owner and am catching up on interesting topics. My car has a 460/521 with aluminum heads and the Holley 1050 (Dominator?), I get about 8-10 mpg, even with some highway driving mixed in, so don't expect great mileage. Driveability is excellent, no overheating in traffic, starts and idles nicely. The torque is fricken' awesome, I have owned some very fast cars (F430, C6 Z06) but I have never experienced anything like this! Be very careful in the first 3 gears.

Gary

[Gofastoldguy]

Quintum…you might check with Bob Broberg at Az Cobras for comments on his Superformance 460 he's had for many years. His mileage to Laughlin recently was around 17-18 I believe (80mph avg). Go on the AZ Cobras site or show up on Tuesday nights at the 5 n Diner on Bell and 75th Ave…or 83rd and Union Hills on Saturdays.
BBryan

[D-CEL]

Since this thread has had some new life breathed into it, I wanted to throw a little info out there about the perceived oiling issues. In short the 460 has a very good factory oils system with the mains fed from a large gallery of passenger side lifters. It is as good (if not better) as any factory wet sump system out there. With that said there are things that can be improved if you’re looking for big RPM and high cornering loads. IMO, the first area should be pan volume. The more oil you have in the pan, the longer the pump can run before it sucks air. I like a full length, “T” sump pan with a rear pickup and make sure your oil level is full! Use all the capacity you have. I think it behooves everyone to take windage and baffeling seriously if you plan to spin a motor past 6000 rpm. It is a hurricane inside the crankcase over 6k rpm. Anything you can do to keep the pick-up covered is a good thing. A solid (louvered) windage tray and trap doors, gates are a real benefit. The next area would be oil retention in the heads. All of the oil to the heads is returned via two ¼ drain holes. These holes can (and should) be opened up to 3/8 or 7/16 dia. Lastly would be the volume of oil moving up to the heads. Only If really necessary would I consider restricting the oil to the heads.
An Accusump is a good, simple and relatively inexpensive insurance policy. I have one and I like it very much. It is also nice to see good solid oil pressure before you turn the key.
Just my .02
Jason

[mdross1]

Hey D-Cel Jason, did you ever do anything with the dry sump? Silversmith stopped by this summer and showed me how his Accusump worked. It is a good idea no doubt my biggest concern is having the time to exercise the car enough to keep the seals from drying up.
Still want to install a solid roller cam one day about the only thing left to do on our car.Love the sound of well adjusted solids and the exhaust cackle that comes along with it.
Mike

[Mdman352]

Just as a point of reference:
I enjoy brute acceleration in my Cobra.
My Contemporary has a 427 (454) So with 486 hp and 580 ft tq.
I also am storing a FFR with a 545 aluminum headed motor that has 750 hp at the crank.
750 HP is too much. Please believe me.

[D-CEL]

Hey Mike,

Nope! LOL my dry sump parts are hiding comfortably in my garage!
I have a plethora of good excuses why I haven't been working on the big motor. Want to hear them? Kids, house, work, blah, blah.
I have actually been thinning out some of my collection of projects (vintage mountain bikes, race car, etc.) and feeling like their may be some light at the end of the tunnel...soon...lol

You're not alone when it comes to needing more seat time. I think Cobra driving is one of the first things to get sacrificed when your life speeds up.

Jason

[mdross1]

Jason
Retired this spring and focused hard on getting all major projects done amazingly think before the holidays will make it. After that have smaller projects lined up for the snow season,one of them restoring a Whizzer motorbike.
One of these days plan to pull the top of the 460 apart for cam change and polish the intake manifold maybe even the valve covers. Did get to drive the Cobra later this summer it sure felt good to be in that hot rod again. Your right though when things start to pile up the Cobra spends a lot time looking at the back wall of the barn. Funny thing is no more feeling guilty that car is a pure joy just seeing it sitting there.
Mike

[lvhdude]

So for you guys that use an Accusump system, how long will it hold pressure? Days, weeks,even months?

Not to get too far off topic, how much compression will 91 octane pump gas stand in an iron block aluminum headed 514 or 521 stroker?

And is there such a thing as heads that flow too much for a street application? Valves too big? Or is it all about camshaft and carb jetting/efi injection curves?

[mdross1]

Without actual experience but a lot of research know that some systems are equipped with schrader valves.

91 octane will work in motors as high as 11.1 or more with aluminum heads the pro's should offer more precise info.

Head flow and working with any engine is all about the parts being matched to work together.With todays technology getting that combination is easy with a little homework.

[D-CEL]

Ivhdude,
I have had an Accusump in mine for about 9 years. I have never had it loose pressure, even after weeks (maybe a month?) I run the electric type and it works great. Its wired to open when you turn the key to power on (it also has an off switch on the dash) Its very nice. Turn the key and hear the click, and hear oil flowing and charging the system. Wait a few seconds for the oil pressure gage to come up (25-30 lbs, it was 40 9 years ago! lol) give it a couple of squirts of fuel and it fires right up.
Compression for 91 octane: That depends on so many things it hard to throw out a number. Many things contribute or detract from detonation resistance. Combustion chamber shape, squish, valve overlap, ignition, vehicle weight, trans, load…. It goes on and on. IMHO, you’re pretty safe @10.5-1 with Alum heads in a Cobra. I wouldn’t get too concerned about trying to squeak every last point of static compression out of a street motor. Set a power level and work towards it keeping in mind want you want it to do.
“Too much” cylinder head flow: It easy to get caught up in the “More is better “mentality,
But on a street motor, the short answer is yes.
500+cfm race heads are cool…but they require huge cross sectional area and lots of port volume to flow those big numbers . Sadly coming off idle, those huge columns of air are moving slowly and resist changes in velocity(read crappy throttle response).Couple that with the fuel falling out of suspension and puddling on the port walls and valves (read hard to tune, snotty, stinky idle and generally unhappy) is not what most people look for in their “FUN CAR”
Those heads are great at pushing dyno needles into the nether regions, But they suck at performing mundane street tasks.
In a street motor, drivability is important with Fun being the primary goal, not 10/10ths performance.
The ability to lug away from a stoplight or creep along in traffic on a congested highway is worth more than most would realize. The smaller ports of “street heads” will serve a street car so much better when cruising around town, or playing up in the canyons or mountain roads.
Remember, street heads like the Ford/Kaase SCJ and P51 regularly make 750-900hp (with known builds of the P51 exceeding 1000hp on race gas). That kind of power gets it done for most people. But if your needs exceed that, race heads ( TFS “A”, Ford “C”, Thor, etc) are where you should be looking.
I do believe that a good port EFI system will help to tame a big race head.

Jason