429/460 Overheating Issue

[Speedwaypj]

Overheating Issue.
Building '67 Cobra Rpl - engine in frame - using large garage fan for cooling.
'69 Ford 429 Stroked to 460, Comp Cam, Rods, Pistons, Holley 750cfm, Edelbrock Torker II Intake, roller rockers, High flow/High Pressure Fuel Pump, High flow/High Pressure Oil Pump, High flow/High Pressure Water pump. Around 11:1 Comp est.
Initial timing @ 12 D BTDC;
Running w/o thermostat (Tried 180 and 160 - overheats)
Radiator Cap inline with output.

PART 1:
With Temp = 72 degrees....ran for 100 Minutes (stationary) with the following results.....
Fan on High – 45 minutes
= temp at 195 degrees Oil @ 50# psi
Fan on Medium – 60 minutes (Total)
= 212 degrees Oil @ 42# (Oil filter = 218)
Fan on LOW – 70 minutes (Total)
= 230 degrees Oil @ 39# (Oil filter = 234)
started pushing water out –all most filled overflow quart bottle.
Fan back on High at 70 – 100 minutes
= temp down to 210 degrees Oil @ 39#

With the thermostat installed it'll go up to 230 degrees and keep climbing.

So, I read many posts and nothing seems to jump out....other than someone pointed out that if the head gaskets are installed backwards it may cause overheating because the gasket should have larger holes to the rear. I have included pics of my gasket and block. It does seem as though the gasket may be backwards per location of degrading holes. However, looking at the pictures, Its hard for me to believe that would make a difference...
Might get a water pressure gauge to monitor it....and try the timing at 16 D BTDC.....
Thoughts? Opinions? Experience?

PART 2:
When first starts, it pushes about 1/2 qt within first couple of minutes.. Because cap is low and high flow Water pump? So with the water pushing out I was thinking of putting the radiator cap on the “low pressure” side of the radiator, there is a petcock on the top that I can hook into and set up a pressure can and overflow...would this work?
Any comments would be appreciated.......SpeedwayPJ
Here is video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTcaeBe7fAg

[Gaz64]

Head gaskets looks backwards to me.

Coolant flows through the block to rear, then up, then forward through the heads.

The rear block passage is not in the first photo, but the front is open.

Gary

[cycleguy55]

How fast was the engine turning when you ran it for the times listed? Was it idling or running faster than that? I've found my temperature drops when I rev it up a bit - the water pump may not be moving enough at low RPM.

I don't know what the CFM is on that fan, but the fact it's not ducted or shrouded to the radiator significantly reduces it's effectiveness. Electric cooling fans move a lot of air - probably much more than that garage fan. Consider it's not uncommon for them to draw 30 or 40 amps - or more. This setup is 4,000 CFM and 50 amps.

Coolant temperatures don't seem that high, quite frankly, especially given the unshrouded fan. Radiators under pressure won't boil over until they're over 250 deg. F - add ethylene glycol and the boiling point is raised further.

Edit: Never mind...

[520SC]

The last time I installed a new head gasket on a Ford 460, the two largest holes at the top (the ones that look like large triangles) extended into the lifter galley without any obstructions. I can definitely see head material through those holes in the pic you provided. Your gasket was installed upside down. I can't say that's the cause of your engine cooling problem, but I can tell that the gasket is not properly installed.

[Tom Wells]

What Gary (Gaz64) said...

It's the rectangular opening just above the spray can cap in the first photo - that needs to be at the rear of the block. If you look at them, the 460 head gaskets have the other end blocked off - it goes to the front. Definitely contributes to overheating. Sorry 'bout that!

Tom

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

What Gary (Gaz64) said...

It's the rectangular opening just above the spray can cap in the first photo - that needs to be at the rear of the block. If you look at them, the 460 head gaskets have the other end blocked off - it goes to the front. Definitely contributes to overheating. Sorry 'bout that!

Tom

That makes sense - that opening provides coolant to the rear of the heads.

Flow is front to back in block and back to front in heads - correct?

[keezling]

Ford head gasket lower corners have a rounded shape on one end and a square shape on the other. This allows you to check gasket orientation with the heads on. The square corner goes to the front both sides. It's designed to stick out and be visible with engine assembled.

[FWB]

yep coolant cutout goes towards rear of engine not the front like the pic.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

That makes sense - that opening provides coolant to the rear of the heads.

Flow is front to back in block and back to front in heads - correct?

Correct.

[Speedwaypj]

Thanks for ALL the feedback; I can see the square edge of the head gasket at the rear of the left head......So I am looking forward to fixing that....Again, thanks to everyone! Pic a little fuzzy (evidently I might have been also when installing it) but it shows the wrong orientation.....but good news....The right side is good! So I'll see what I can get done today (Promised wife a winery visit today)..
Thanks....PJ

[Speedwaypj]

got it pulled apart......wrong orientation...but that's a good thing if it solves my heat issue....off to the winery.....Darn

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Speedwaypj

got it pulled apart......wrong orientation...but that's a good thing if it solves my heat issue....off to the winery.....Darn

Happy wife, happy life. Consider the winery visit an investment in your future happiness. Perhaps you can draw analogies between wine colours and Cobra colours. That would be the reds, not the whites. Or beiges...

[Speedwaypj]

Appreciate the input from all!
I replaced head gasket, and intakes...noticed old intake gaskets had center water port closed off for manifold. Replacement intake gasket has it opened. Should help. I built a shroud that covers about 2/3 of radiator. (I'm running 6 blade flex fan). Still seems to get hot while idling(235 F). If I use aux garage fan it goes down to 210 F. So, I guess I'll find out when I have permanent shroud....and if needed I'll add elec fan.......... The reason that I am running a mechanical fan is to move more air through the engine compartment to try to relieve the inherent heat of a Cobra. (Timing is at 16 BTDC)

[stallion112]

I've got a 429 SCJ with aluminum intake, Holley carb, slightly bumpy cam, and headers - nothing fancy. It used to run about 205F on a hot day while cruising and 210-215F when at a light with a 180F thermostat.

Got rid of the original copper radiator (rumored to be from a 69 big block Corvette) and dual electric fans. Installed an aluminum radiator, '95 Taurus electric fan and shroud assembly (high CFM), and a Flex-a-Lite fan control unit.

Runs at 185F all day long now when cruising, bumps up to 190F with the fans on at a light and remains stable.

[Speedwaypj]

Update - mod shroud to include 95% of radiator... seemed better....still temp creeps up to 230F, but if I set idle high (~ 2500) it will bring it down to around 210.....still pushing antifreeze out, about 1 1/2 qt. Radiator cap inline with output, high location...may need expansion tank to accommodate expansion when hot.
... 6 blade flex fan, good shroud - pulling fine - better than most production shrouds, mild upgrade on engine...(when I had head off, everything looked ok...no leaking gasket)

I guess I'll get an aux electric fan...and see what happens....yes there is a plate behind water pump.
still doesn't make sense to me.....

Any more Ideas?????

[PeteF]

I had a similar problem with an Edelbrock hi flow water pump. Temp would go to 230 and the cooling system would burp/lose pressure. I finally installed a standard- flow water pump and everything returned to normal. I assume the pump was cavitating, but could not find anything wrong with it (impeller turning the right direction, etc).

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Speedwaypj

Update - mod shroud to include 95% of radiator... seemed better....still temp creeps up to 230F, but if I set idle high (~ 2500) it will bring it down to around 210.....still pushing antifreeze out, about 1 1/2 qt. Radiator cap inline with output, high location...may need expansion tank to accommodate expansion when hot.
... 6 blade flex fan, good shroud - pulling fine - better than most production shrouds, mild upgrade on engine...(when I had head off, everything looked ok...no leaking gasket)

I guess I'll get an aux electric fan...and see what happens....yes there is a plate behind water pump.
still doesn't make sense to me.....

Any more Ideas?????

Temperatures still seem high.

What pulleys are you running - high flow or standard? CVF Racing, for example, lists the high flow water pump pulley as 5.4" OD (single groove, double groove is 5.2" OD), while the standard is 5.9".

Is your overflow tube connected to a coolant recovery tank? I can't tell from the video. Old school / original Cobras used expansion tanks, but coolant recovery systems became common / ubiquitous in the '60s and do a much better job of handling the normal expansion and contraction of coolant. Having said that, 1.5 quarts seems high to me - I would expect less than 1/2 that, probably more like a pint or so.

FWIW, I'm not a big fan of most flex fans - they seem to be designed to minimize HP loss, rather than designed to move sufficient air. The 'wide blade' versions (e.g. https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...1315/overview/ ) would move more air, though I don't know how much more.

Do you have an updated video or photo showing the new shroud? The shroud s/b designed so the fan is half in and half out of the opening with 1" clearance from the fan tips. https://www.flex-a-lite.com/blog/the...roud-position/

[keezling]

BTW, unless I misunderstood you the center hole in the intake gasket is not a water port but a exhaust crossover port to heat the carb to aid cold start warm up and cold weather drivability. Most hotrodders block it off as their thinking is to keep heat away from the carb. This explains the two styles of gaskets.

[Speedwaypj]

Thanks again all! Sorry - I can't upload pictures....

INTAKE:
Yes, that center opening in the Intake Gasket is for Exhaust....That must be why I had a left over intake set....Plan to change that out....
Speaking of manifold; in one of the forums someone drilled/tapped into the water jacket and connected to the goose neck to help relieve air pocket....so is this area at the rear of the manifold the place to drill/tap? there is a head water jacket that fed the stock manifold in that location.

BURP:
So, since my kids are in their mid 30's I'm not sure if I burped my Cobra correctly (trying to get air pocket out), but I have a very steep driveway and ran it for 20 minutes...did not see it burp.

RADIATOR:
It has two petcocks; and I have the smaller inlet tube 1 1/2" up top... 1 3/4" return at bottom.

OVERFLOW:
I have a catch can; however I do not have an expansion tank which should help with the push out. When the engine cools it does suck the water back into the block. Also I'm wondering about installing the expansion tank on the "Low pressure" side of the radiator.

WATER PUMP:
So, I am running a "High Flow" water pump with standard pulley.

Mechanical Fan:
Thinking of switching out my 6-blade flex fan for a 7 blade flex fan 18 1/4".

AUX FAN:
I'd like to use the ERA's Dual Front Fans. See Pic...not sure of CFM.
Front fans

I'm not sure if consistency is good in this situation.....
I installed a pressure gauge and it starts overflowing around 14-15psi. It was suggested to go to an 18 - 21# cap.

Monday's Run:
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

Tuesday's Run: about the same...
After 30 minutes - goes up to 240 at idle; as soon as I go to high idle it comes down to 215. Still pushes out about 1 1/2 qt (But I think it's cause of me lacking an expansion tank).

But - that motor sounds real good!

[Gaz64]

240 is way too hot for my liking.

I would be measuring the coolant temp at the top and bottom hoses with an infrared temp gun.

The thermostat would be at max lift, and so the radiator and fan combo is not doing it's job.

Gary