ALERT! 514 owners, heads up!!

[Back in Black]

I just got off the phone with a tech at Ford Performance, the supplier of the 514 and other Ford crate motors.
Here's what the tech said about VALVE LASH adjustment:
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BiB: "Are these needle bearing mechanical roller lifters in the 514?"

Tech: "YES".
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BiB: "How often do I need to adjust them?"

Tech: "If you drive it say every weekend, maybe every 5th weekend or so, maybe every 800 to 1500 miles"
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BiB : "Are you sure about that? Some have suggested every 3-5k miles?".

Tech: "Sounds like excessive mileage between adjustments, to me".
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BiB: "What adjustment method do you recommend?"

Tech: "Heat up your motor, pull one valve cover, adjust each of the 8 valves as quickly as possible, .025 gap HOT. (That's 25 thousands of an inch)
THEN, put the valve cover back on, heat the motor back up, and do the other side".
~~~~~~~~~~~
Hope this gets noticed by 514 owners before it's too late. Needle bearings from the lifters, from excessive wear, all over your motor would not be a good thing!

There always is the option to switch to a hydraulic cam and lifters !

[Satanpez]

Seems crazy.

Can you run hydraulic on these motors? Do they rev too high?

Who makes the lifters? Crane? You may want to ask them what they think.

-steve in nj-

[Back in Black]

Here is the Ford tech number. It seemed wierd to me also.

1-586-468 1356 (I got right thru, no waiting)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You can certainly run hydraulic, the top RPM is maybe 6300 to 6500 on these motors, although I will not top 6000 to 6200 on mine.

[Jeff Frigo]

There is nothing wierd about it. That is why most people don't run solid rollers on the street. Besides, what's the big deal? Once you have done it a few times, it will take you less than 20 minutes to check and set the lash.

You could put a hydraulic cam in if you want to, but will loose about 50 hp or so.

[wilf leek]

Ok you guys, educate a poor ignorant englishman please?

I understand well that solid lifter engines will need valve lash adjusting every now and then. Most cars that I drove in my youth here in the UK had solid lifters - it was the norm because we considered hydraulic lifters typically "american" and unnecessary until the mid '80's! (bit like ac - now it's in every new car).

Now all my old bangers needed valve lash adjustment say every 3000 - 5000 miles. That was because of the poor heat treatment/materials of the rocker arms, valve stems would indent the rocker tips.

Now - your 514 crate engine that needs lash adjustment every 800 to 1500 miles - what the hell is wearing there? Unless things are moving, the only reason to adjust valve lash is to compensate for wear somehwere in the valve train, so what exactly is wearing so fast?

BTW - valve "lash" known as valve clearance in the UK, also known as "adjusting the tappets", which is a bit of a misnomer, since "tappet" is english for cam follower. The origins of this go back to old side valve (flathead) engines, where you did indeed adjsut the valve clearances at the follower.
History (and language) lesson over, now answer my question!!

[Tom Wells]

BiB et al,

See:

460 roller cam

Enjoy,

Tom

[Jeff Frigo]

Wilf:

There are 2 types of solid lifters. The one you described above is a flat lifter solid cam. Adjustment every 3-5k miles is fine. The other type of solid cam is a roller lifter solid cam. The reason these type of cams need to be adjusted so often is because there are tiny needle bearings that surround the roller on the lifter. These parts wear very rapidly, in fact probably need to be rebuilt or replaced evey 5,000 miles or so. That is why most people don't run this type of cam on the street.

You may ask "how do engines that have hydraulic rollers run for 100k without needing to replace them?" Simple, they run less lift and have more consevative acceleration and deceleration ramps on the cams, thus require about half of the spring pressure. The heavy spring pressure also is hard on the rest of the valve train.

The plus side of solid rollers is HP. The hgher the hp, the more maintance required, and less engine longevity.

[wilf leek]

Jeff - so what you are saying is the the acceleration rates generated by the aggressive cam grind wear out the rollers on the followers?

I knew HP cost money, but this is too rich for my pocket - I'll stick to my old hydraulic rollers I think.

Thanks

[Jeff Frigo]

Wilf:

Yes, that is correct. They also wear out the needle bearings that surround the roller follower.

[millennium200]

Have almost 6000 miles on my 514 since April this year and have adjusted the valves once at 5400 miles. I guess this engine does not know that it is supposed to explode sending needle bearings in all directions. I for one have not found the stock cam to be all that radical for street use. Have several friends that drag race all the time think the cam is to mild. Yes I do plan on adjusting the valves a little more often but that is the price you pay for the performance. Why do you want a 514 and then gut the cam and lifters and kill the HP. If solid roller lifters were that fragile no one would use them. If you do not have the ability to adjust the valves then I understand the switch to hydraulic lifters. I do not enjoy adjusting valves when I could be driving but thats the price you pay for the HP.

[BANDIT 1]

You all are making it sound like you can't have a 600 horsepower 514 ci. engine without solid lifters, Performance Engineering (formally Competition Motorsports) builds several "stroker" 460 engines including a "custom" 600 horsepower 520 ci. engine (with hydraulic lifters) that get's it's peak horsepower at 5,000 rpm (compared to the 514 crate engine's peak horsepower at 6,000 rpm). They have several other "stroker" big block engines with even more horsepower.

[millennium200]

Yes, you can make Hp with hydraulic lifters as long as you keep the rpm to 5500 or less and a little less radical cam. However, one of the things that always brings me back to the 514 crate motor is 600 hp for 7000 dollars. What a bargin! Even if you have to adjust valves.

[BANDIT 1]

I have taken my engine to 6,500 rpm atleast 3 - 4 times with no problems. I am by no means putting down a crate engine, I am just saying 600 + horsepower can be done with a hydraulic setup(for more $$$$).

[niles]

Wilf:

Your the one beacon on reason!

Guys; I don't care what the Ford rep said; you don't have to adjust the rockers every 800 mi! the clearance is .024; what is wearing within 10% of that? Answer nothing.
Jeff; the needle bearings wear; about 10 mircrons very 5ooo miles. After a needle bearing or any roller for that matter wears more than one or two thousandths of an inch, it's damaged and running rough and is on the path to failure. Check them every oil change and you be fine. I never find any that have changed more than .oo1 in - ever. My adjusting margin of error is bigger than that.
Also; right; check um hot and burn the cr*p out of yourself.
Hint check a couple of cylinders hot; set at .024 in; then cool the motor and recheck the same two and see what the clearance is cold. It should be smaller. THEN set them cold and avoid the 3 degree burns. . That was SOP for the old air cooled Porsches; way to dangerous to set hot; so the specific factory instructions was for careful cold setting of .002 and .004. When the motor was hot all that alum expanded and the real valve lash was about .015.


gn

[cobrashoch]

My recomedation is to change out your roller tappets with a new set at the start of each season or every 10k miles or so. Send them in to be rebuilt then you will have a new set for the next season. It's been my experience with these guys that the old sets ALLWAYS have something wrong or something I don't like. Easy to change out, not all THAT expensive when you think of the cost of your engine, and the peice of mind is priceless on this high wear item. I run Cranes. Have been for years. Anyone else use anything else that may be better? I'm open to suggestions here.
cobrashock

[millennium200]

Bandit-1 that 520 sounds great with the best of both worlds. However I knew that 5500 rpm would get your intrest up. As best I can find at rpms over 5500 is the reason for solid roller lifters. At that speed give or take all your roller lifters due to their heavy weight , compaired to flat tappet lifters, want to start not to follow the cam lobe and for lack of a better word flutter. The cure is heaver valve springs which in turn want to collapse the hydraulic lifter. Which is what brought about solid roller lifters. The more radical the cam the bigger the problem, that is why most cam companies only offer their most radical grinds for solid lifters only.
That is why your engine develops its max power at 5000. To try to answer the English Gentlemans question about wear is . With new engines as the valves settle into their seats and the rest of the valve train wear in you need to adjust the valves frequently, 3000 miles or so for two or three times untill the valves settle in their seats, then you can go for longer periods between adjustments. As for duribility the first soild rollers failed frequently due to lack of oil at low rpms. Most all solid rollers including the ones in my 514 now have a extra oil groove in the lifter to deliver more oil at low rpms, which gives a lot longer life as the wear that Niles has measured indacates. As when to change them I am unsure about that one.

[Back in Black]

This is why I was told to adjust them frequently. At least at first this is the case then. Thanks!

[BANDIT 1]

millennium200:

I was told by my engine builder that depending on which "stroker" 460 engine he builds (with the hydraulic lifters), the peak horsepower comes between 5,000 and 5,800 rpm (different setups). He said he has most of his customers use between a 6,500 - 7,000 rpm limiter. Again, my point is that you can have a Hydraulic Cam 600 horsepower engine that can do atleast 6,500 rpm (even though there is no reason to go above 5,800 rpm).

[Jahred]

Bandit - no reason to do 6500 RPM? How bout the fact that these cars will burn through that 5800 RPM at 142 MPH in right around 10 flat if set up properly and that 700 RPM will get you to 170 MPH?. Shoot, if I can't hit 6500 RPM my kids will be passing me on the straight a way in that 944 Turbo! :-). All kidding aside, I was surprised the other day when I calculated how much top end came off as I dropped the max RPM down from 6750 to the 5000 range. 125 vs 165 or so. So this is a bit of a real issue.

[BANDIT 1]

Jahred:

With my Tremec TKO 5 - speed, I have already been to over 170 mph (per the speedo...) and there seemed to be plenty of rpm left. As far as the "don't really need to go above 5,800 rpm", I meant as far as for "peak" horsepower purposes. My engine builder says the engine will do 7,000 rpm with no problems.