427 vs. 429/460 - Page 2

Venom S · #22 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 10:32 AM

Thanks Tom

Venom S · #23 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 10:47 AM

BIB-

Try www.kinsler.com

Tom-

The phone # is a private residence

Venom_S

Venom S · #24 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 10:57 AM

Sorry about all the replies to this post, but for some reason the system will not allow me to edit.

Raceparts Distribution is at 1-888-360-7233. I called them and spoke with David. He has the 460 all aluminum block (M-6010-A96) "on the shelf". Comes with 4-bolt mains, and steel sleeves. Can be bored/sleeved up to 4.625". With a 4.500" stroked, that would give you 605 cubic inches. Impressive!!

It is machined to use roller cam bearings. No big deal. Any cam maker can custom grind a cam (hydraulic, mechanical, or roller) to work.

Forgot to ask the weight savings. DAMN!!

Now for the price - $4495

Venom_S

Tom Wells · #25 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 11:42 AM

So Venom S,

How many of the blocks are you gonna get

I wish...

Tom

PS: I rechecked the phone # and sure enough, I made a typo

- please accept my apology - I fixed it above!

Back in Black · #26 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 01:13 PM

With EFI and the right components you could be talking 700 hp on pump premium...not bad... the cost is not that bad either, really...the higher levels of our (hobby, interest, whatever) cars is not a cheap thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thanks for the kinsler link... Venom S...they are sorta' near WCC and may be of help for my current install !

Fred Douglass · #27 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 07:39 PM

A-pie,
I am not an owner/driver yet, so, for what it's worth, I can tell you I've garnered enough information to make MY decision. I've ridden in a HUGE-block by Dove (in Rick Long's car), in an SPF with Ford Motorsports 393, a Butler with a 39_-something Chebbie (!?), an SPF w/ a 460, an FFR with a blown 302, and an SPF with Dean Woodruff's 418 "Stage 4" stroker. This latter ride was at HOC w/ Dean driving and I gotta tell ya---the previous rides faded a bit in my memory! I gotta go with Mr. Fixit's wise cousel that too little engine soon gets to be WAY too little engine as you build "seat-time". In my view (NOT Mr. Fixit's) too MUCH engine inhibits the desire to use the car every day (in this respect, I am speaking as a gracelessly-aging [semi-] Olde Pharte). I think Dean Woodruff's 418 stroker (wh/ yields 504 hp and 528 ft/lbs) is the best compromise for me. Rick Long loved to drive around with close to 700 hp. The SPF with the FoMoSpo 393 was pulling around 450 hp and similar torque, but the owner was a "young guy" (less than 40 makes 'em young to me) and he is now contemplating a bigger engine. I can tell you, if you want snot and ocular fluid mixing in the back of your skull--go big-block for sure. If you want a little more tractability, go sb "made halfway big" (406-418 stroker). I yield the remainder of my time to the more knowledeable guys on this site... Good Luck.

Jeff Frigo · #28 (**permalink**) 10-08-2002, 08:01 PM

Back in Black:

Fuel injection makes no more ultimate hp than a carb. does. It can make more torque and hp throught the rpm range, thus making the car more driveable and tracktable, but no more hp on the top end.

David Griffin · #29 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:08 AM

The M6010A96 block is in the Ford Racing Cat. It weighs
165lbs. It can be bored from 4.360-4.625 (Up to 632cid)
It sells for $4500.00. I hear this is about $1000.00 cheaper
than the alum. FE block Shelby sells.

Back in Black · #30 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 09:50 AM

There are quite a few EFI manufacturers, installers, and designers out there who say that properly tuned EFI can increase HP over a carb due to greater precision of fuel delivery at all RPMs, and that it can increase engine life by avoiding lean conditions, etc... see this link:

http://www.chiefengines.com/efi.html

They are not the only ones making these claims, although the proof would be on a dyno...in fact we will know because my EFI WILL be tuned on a dyno...I am hoping for before and after stats !

Mr.Fixit · #31 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 10:00 AM

The dyno tune will only get you close, the car puts a different load on the motor than does a dyno.

cobrashoch · #32 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 12:41 PM

I am going to pretty much go with what Fred Douglass said. There is a balance here that has to be struck for streetcars. I am going to let a cat out of the bag here. About a year ago The motor I am using now in another carnate RW dyno'd at 1047 horsepower at 5800rpms. Wow you say? Bragging? Nope, my car has a 17 gallon fuel cell. You know where this is going? I sent the motor back to my engine guy with the instructions to raise the compression ratio and cut way back on the boost. The idea of stopping to fuel up every 70 miles in a Cobra somehow just didn't set well with me. Point is you should define what your car needs are, then work that way to meet those needs. This horsepower thing and lately the techno thing is just a bunch of moncho BS. Horsepower is only usefull if you are happy with the car. The power should not define the cars gendra. Otherwise you will just have a blown Pacer that runs 8's in the quarter, and who cares?
cobrashock

BANDIT 1 · #33 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 01:56 PM

It's a no brainer for me, the 429/460 engine family is better, faster, stronger, and less expensive. Why care if you have a "original" 427 S.O. engine in your "non original" Cobra?

Vision · #34 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 04:48 PM

american pie
you may want to check out the replica manufactures before you make a final decision on an engine
some of the replicas are not physically capable of putting the 385 series engine in. there are trade offs to be made here and it is best to match the replica to the engine.

Jack21 · #35 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 06:35 PM

Tom,

Don't worry about your tall, leggy brunette. My "type" are the short busty blondes.

At least you're now thinking bigger is not necessarily better. Your real requirements, behind the wheel, on the road (or track) are likely to be WAY different than your unqualified needs perusing factory brochures with no Cobra driving experience under your belt.

And (a big AND), your requirements WILL change after a year behind the wheel of your Cobra in powerplant, brakes, suspension, and application (street - track).

So, don't blow your wad on a $20,000 engine right from the get-go. Learn your Cobra, and decide what you want to do with your Cobra. Then modify - upgrade accordingly.

RockSnake · #36 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:19 PM

At the moment, I am unable to find it...maybe it is at the office. Anyway, there exists a website that provides physical descriptions of the more popular engines.

As memory serves, the 429/460 engine ranks as the largest (dimensionally), and heaviest of those that were described. Interestingly, the 289/302 are the smallest/lightest. So, a 302 is almost 100 lbs lighter than a chevy 350, and a 460 is about 50 lbs heavier than a chevy 454.

Certainly a consideration for these small cars.

Tomorrow, I'll try to find the website and post it.

David

Tom Wells · #37 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 07:27 PM

Hey Jack21,

I didn't mean to imply I haven't driven a kit car - I've driven my 521-powered E-M over 3400 miles since mid-June, including a nice long session on the track last Saturday at Summit Point. It woulda been more mileage except for the distributor gear problem

I'm so happy with the car I could spit! For me, it's nearly perfect.

I recall seeing over 200 others at the Fling this year, and the thing that struck me most was that every one of them was different - as it should be I think.

The feel, sound and performance is better than I imagined.

No complaints here

Regards,

Tom

PS: The practical advice I used to build this car is -> "If it matters what gear you're in, the engine's too small!"

fordracer · #38 (**permalink**) 10-09-2002, 08:17 PM

Try this for 385 engines :

www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/85220

And try this for FE's :

www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/74182

And just in case here's one for Clevelands :

www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/119419

Have fun

Mohuska · #39 (**permalink**) 10-11-2002, 12:29 AM

You can get an alum engine block (460) from Flatlander Racing...big!!! $$$$$...but they can build up to an 806 ci engine..they say...

Bib.....I am leaning more towards a custom 460...stroked out to a 524......steel crank...forged dish pistons (22cc)...Blue Thunder heads with 2.25 Intake and 1.88 exhaust and 100cc combustion chamber...gives me a compression ratio of 9.1:1...... Cam is Crower....EFI being set up by Force Injection in Miami.....complete with throttle body....injectors, sensors and all the bells and whistles on a Victor single plane intake......MSD 7 ignition and distributor.....and then.....

Adding a Procharger F-1R supercharger....The Chevy carbureted kit will fit on the 460 with minor bracket adjustments......and reinforcers from March pulleys........

I put this in the Dyno2000 simulator.....and got a beautiful torque vs power curve with peak Hp at 867 and torque at 810.............

Force will mount everything and tune system........what do you think???

RockSnake · #40 (**permalink**) 10-11-2002, 06:53 AM

Well, the site appears to be 404. However, I found my hard-copy. So for anyone who cares. The weights of various engines are as follows:
Ford 289/302 - 460 lbs
Ford 351W - 525 lbs
Chev 283-350 - 575 lbs
Chev 427/454 - 620 lbs
Ford FE series - 625 lbs
Ford 429/460 - 720 lbs

Dimenesionally, the Ford big-blocks are about 3 inches wider, 5 inches longer, and 2 inches taller then the 289/302. Interestingly, the 351 is the same height as the big-blocks, the same length as the 289/302, and in-between on the width.