427 vs. 429/460

AmericanPie · #1 (**permalink**) 10-05-2002, 11:52 PM

Hey, you guys have an awesome site here. I don't own a Cobra (yet) and have never owned a Ford-powered anything so I'm truly a novice in the Cobra world. The fact is, I'm a lot more familiar with big-block Chevies as I've built a few of them.

Can you guys tell me what the advantages (and disadvantages) of each of the big-block Ford motors are? I assume the 427 side oiler would be the most expensive, but is it also the most desirable from a performance standpoint for any reason? And how about the variations on the 429 (460, 514 stroker, etc.) what are the strengths and weaknesses of each? Thanks; I hope your replies will get me started in the right direction. I'd appreciate any recommendations for good reading (besides your web site) on this subject as well!

A Snake · #2 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 12:34 AM

AP, suggest you use the search capabilities of the site. There are lots of threads dealing with that question. Just type in 427 vs 429 or a variation of that......good hunting and enjoy!

BTW try Amazon.com for reading material and type in Ford 427 engines or big block Fords. I have an old book I've had for more than 25 years on just that subject.

Al

Excaliber · #3 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 02:10 AM

To get you started:

From what I been "picking up" the 460 seems to be wider and taller than a 427\428\429 style motor. Making it more "problematic" when it comes to shoe horning one in under the hood.

Also, some "kits" are more adept at accepting some engines than others are. For instance JBL will NOT accept a big block, they are designed for a small block (hey, that works for me)! So engine choice AND kit choice have to go hand in hand.

But the BB vs SB debate is a HOTLY contested issue and is covered IN DEPTH in various threads. Gonna put my helmet on now, there may be "in coming".........

Ernie

aumoore · #4 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 10:07 AM

The 427 was the largest of the "FE" series of Ford Big Blocks. The FE family includes the 360, 390, 410, 428, 427 and the 427 camer(427 block). The 385 Lima series includes the 429, 460 and the new 514 strokers. The 385 series is larger and slightly heaver than the FE series. The 385 series has canted valves with seperate rocker arms while the FE series has straight line valves with rocker shafts. The FE series is an older design dating back to about 1960 while the 385 series came out around 1970.

IMHO the FE is great if you have lots of money and want an authentic looking motor. If you want lots of performance for your money and do not mind a non-authentic looking motor and want a big block the 385 series is hard to beat. Normally asperated the FE is good to about 550 to 600 HP but be prepared to open up your retirement account. For less than 1/2 the money you can get over 600 hp with a 385 series and parts are still made for it.

If you want good performance with the right look you can dress up a 390 and put good heads on it and get over 400 hp for not a lot of money.

Tom Wells · #5 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 10:34 AM

Hey AmericanPie,

I really do like my 514! It has a C6 / 2.88 Powerlok behind it and can spin the back tires any time you wish. It has been "detuned" with a dual plane manifold and a hydraulic roller cam to reduce maintenance. I have 3600 miles on it since mid-June, including a half-hour's worth of laps at Summit Point yesterday - what a blast!

I'd get one built, though. I bought a Ford crate 514, and now have more money in it than I would have spent on a custom-built unit - Ford sent it to me with bad rods and a defective distributor and so far hasn't done much to ease the pain of some expensive failures...

The sound is great. It pulls well into the triple-digit speed range in a blink.

The above kit suggestions are correct - if you're gonna do this engine, you need to make sure the kit's body/frame allows it to fit. Some of the current kits that can use the 460 include the Everett-Morrison (defunct but now being made by CSC -> http://glasssnake50313.tripod.com/), SPF, Factory Five and West Coast. There may be others.

HTH,

Tom

AmericanPie · #6 (**permalink**) 10-06-2002, 11:08 PM

Thanks for all the replies so quickly. It sounds like a "385" series engine might be the best way for me to go; especially a 460 which would probably rev nicely. While I can appreciate the 427 (hey, I grew up in the '60s) and the torque of a 514, originality isn't as important as building a reliable, up-to-date, fire-breathing motor. From what I've been reading, though, each of the factory crate motors leaves something to be desired (low compression, mild cam, cast crank, etc.). I guess that means I'd have to start building the motor from scratch, right? Or is there a factory motor that would be a cost-effective starting point, without having to replace too many components?

And thanks, Al; I WILL search the archives for big-block info. . . good advice!

Back in Black · #7 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 10:02 AM

I will point out a few facts here, American pie...to speed up your learning curve on this issue. ...... I started where you are, wondering what the heck I wanted under the hood......have gleaned quite a bit of info on this site...and I highly recommend that you visit the archives, especially the BB section... there is a wealth there.

* Low compression is GOOD on a street car...too much and you will be using aviation fuel or octane booster (hard to get the mix just "right" each time for the additive, and both are expensive and a hassle) High compression is overrated as far as the BIG engines are concerned...a SB might need it, but not these big boys. Beyond about 400 hp you are going to have traction issues as your main concern...anyway

* (Basically) The 514 is a "super stroked" 429...the 460 is a stroked 429 . All are the 385 series of blocks..

* I cannot describe the 460 (535 horse) or the 514 (600 hp) as being "mild" or having a mild cam...both will scare the willies outa ya, and the 514 will, as the Ford literature says "put you back in your seat".

There are crazies here at CC that have more HP...we love 'em, and drool over their open motor compartments, but most of us are "not worthy"

* Cast cranks can be just fine, especially the steel versions, or the nodular iron type (not sure how these are made, but don't let the iron part fool you, most piston rings are iron) Forged cranks sound great, but are usually not needed.

* If you want more HP you will pay BIG bucks for the scant extra HP you will get...one thing you might consider is to buy an SVO and have it balanced and blueprinted by a REAL 385 series PRO...I did not do this, because I did not want my build slowed down more than it already is... By the time my motor is ready to be replaced, I will have something extra juicy sitting on an engine stand waiting for the transplant...a custom built motor from a pro shop. If you have time, money, and want something really different, then by all means build something rad.. you need go no farther than this:

http://www.schubeckracing.com/904.htm

Of course, we will all be counting the miles until something else breaks on your snake, if you use the 904. The strength of the rest of your drivetrain is the crucial element when you get over +~450 hp

Mr.Fixit · #8 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 10:10 AM

If you like big block chevies, as I do, the motor you need is a stroked 429/460 based motor for your ford. It has the good parts available, they go out to 520 inches easily, and it will cost less to do than the 427.

Hankcar · #9 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 12:23 PM

Have you guys seem the new 58mm throttle body injection set ups for the 427 & 460 motors from TWM Induction? check it out at
www.twminduction.com

Venom S · #10 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 01:31 PM

Hey AmericanPie-

I'm building a bored/stroked 460 that will displace 532 cubic inches. It will have 10.5:1 compression, Blue Thunder Heads, and a custom grind Comp Cams mechanical cam. The $$ per HP are far less than the FE. I only wish they offered an aluminum block like they do for the FE, as these engines are HEAVY!!

Venom_S

Tom Wells · #11 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 02:20 PM

Hi Venom S,

Try Ford Racing part number M-6010-A96. It'll lighten your car AND your wallet!

Tom

Venom S · #12 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 02:26 PM

Tom-

Are you serious?? An aluminum 460 block? How much?

Venom_S

Back in Black · #13 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 03:53 PM

I went to the site, but the only app I could find was for the 427/428 ?? I admit I did not peruse the entire PDF catalog

What we are all looking for out here is a complete setup with software, computer controls, and the intake...a drop in install.. I have yet to see one for the 385 series of motors (429/460/514)

Venom S · #14 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 04:01 PM

BIB-

I spoke with http://www.kinsler.com/ . They gave me a quote for a complete system with an initial setup to get you running. Final mapping will have to be done by you.

Cost was $6400 - complete

Venom_S

Mr.Fixit · #15 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 04:12 PM

Yeah, there's definately aluminum 460 blocks out there. I cut my left hand pretty good on one a little over a year ago. Not sure how much less they weigh, apparently they are beefier.

Jack21 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 04:43 PM

Some guys like short busty blondes, and some guys like tall leggy brunettes. There's no "One size fits all" to this.

I still get a woodie with anything that says 454, or 455 on it, and was there when they could be driven off the showroom floor. Similar to Mr. Fixit, used to fix them as a sideline. Same with MGA's, MGB's, TR3's & 4's, Healys, and Sunbeam Tigers.

But a 3800# Chevelle, or 3600# Camaro, or a 3400# Vette appreciates the torque of the 454. The 2400# Cobra makes expensive smoke. And I'm not saying that this is undesirable, provided the builder/owner, meaning you, have assessed your driving requirements and have decided for yourself that this is what you want your finished car to do.

Guys with Vortec supercharged 302's and 331's are running the faster ET's at the drags. Guys with 351's and 393's are running faster times at the track where cornering and braking is important.

And the 351's and 393's make for good street cruising.

Bottom line, go out to some local events. Talk to some owners of SB and BB cars. Go for a ride or two. Then decide how you want to power your steed.

You see Cobras For Sale advertizing 600HP and wonder why the guy is selling it. We just don't want you to be one of them.

Tom Wells · #17 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 05:49 PM

Hi Venom S,

My Ford Racing catalog says to call Raceparts Distribution, Inc at 704-892-8688.

Be sure you are seated, maybe with your 5-point seat belt firmly cinched up

and ask about one. Then let the rest of us know what you find out!

Hi Jack21,

Stay away from my brunette

I spent a 35 minute session on the track at Summit Point Saturday with my 514 hauling me around at easy triple digit speeds, and you couldn't have erased the grin if you tried!

So 'tis true - to each his own

!

As my wife's grandmother was reportedly fond of saying

"Thank goodness everyone has different tastes. Otherwise they'd all be after my old man!"

Tom

Back in Black · #18 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 07:41 PM

The link no worka, man.....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jack 21...the reason the BB motors may not be turning the quicker ETAs where you are, is that very fine control and a LOT of experience would be needed NOT to just mash the go pedal off the line...if one can get launched and rolling at a decent speed, without lighting 'em up too much, then the torque and HP will win...the dramatically higher HP car, with similar construct, will win a 1/4 mile drag...with the right driver....it's simple mathematics

aumoore · #19 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 08:04 PM

Not trying to be smart but the Dragon Snakes were all small blocks and the Cobra Roadsters that won races were all small blocks.

As someone mentioned above the big cars and trucks like and need a lot of torque to get off the line. With a light car like a cobra or a F1 car you need HP or the ability to spin up fast to gain speed. All things baing equal a 500 hp small block will out run a 500 hp big block because the car will weigh less and there will be more weight over the rear tires with a small block. The big block puts more weight over the front end where it hurts weight transfer.

Now if your thing is mashing the throttle at 60 and spinning the tires without downshifting then get a big block as it will feel awsome on the street but do not be suprised if you are not faster than some high HP small blocks.

Although I love my small block I still would love to have a big block Cobra one day.

If you think about it in Europe a 5.0(302c.i.) is a big block compared to what they have.

Excaliber · #20 (**permalink**) 10-07-2002, 08:20 PM

RPM "spin up" time is a major factor. A short stroke engine will build RPM faster than a long stroke engine. At the same HP, I will put my money on the short stroke. Porsche is a good example of a traditionally shorter stroke compared to bore size configuration.

Ernie