Cylind Boring w/out deck plates??

[rpred]

Currently searching for a machine shop to recondition my block and heads. I found a good shop that I was impressed with but they do not have deck plates for my Big Block Ford 460. I'm building a mild performing street motor for my FFR Cobra.
Question?? Are deck plates necessary when boring cylinders?? What do deck plates do?? Will piston tolerances for this motor accomidate for variances??

Thanks, Rick

[scottj]

When the heads are torqued down, the stresses on the block caused by the headstuds or headbolts will cause the cylinders to be out of round. Deck plates or torque plates simulate those stresses during the machining operation. What you then have are cylinders that are out of round after machining, when the deck plates are removed, but are round after the heads are installed.

The benefit is better efficiency due to better ring seal. Not necessary for a street engine, but better.
Scott

[Excaliber]

Not a big deal unless your buildng a real serious motor. And if that was the case, you would be going WAY deeper than just head plates for the bore job.

Ernie

[Satanpez]

I'm not an expert, but I have read that it depends on the motor. I don't know what a 460 is setup like, but on a 302 motor supposedly you don't need a deck plate because the head bolts are spaced out farther from the cylinder. On an engine like a chevy 350 they're closer together so when torqued down, they distort the cylinders.

If you email me, I can dig up the source for this if you really want it. But it's certainly not based on my experience.

-steve in nj-

[Jeff Frigo]

Find another shop. I can understand a shop not having deck plates for a not so popular engine, but a 460 is as common as they get. Almost all production engines being built today are bored and honed with deck plates.

Can it be done without? Of course, but why would you. I pesonally would not rebuild an engine for my pick up truck without them, they are too common now a days.

Find another shop.

[Excaliber]

Now that I think about it, the small block Chevy 400 cid with the "siamese" cylinders would be a perfect candidate for torgue plate boring. But then again, why would you bother building a Chevy engine anyway? LOL

Ernie

[Bart Carter]

I wouldn't get my engine done at any shop that wouldn't have/use torque plates. You are spending a lot of money to get it done right. There are reasons the best shops use torque plates.

[Turk]

I think almost most shops have and use a deck plate for popular sizes they build. If the shop building my FE didn't have the deck plates, it may be a tell tale sign that they don't do too many FEs.

Do they have deck plates for other engines? If they do, my theory holds up.

TURK

[Jeff Frigo]

Turk:

I know FE guys always think FE's, but Rick said that other BB, a 460. If the guy doesn't have deck plates for 460's, run don't walk.

[Turk]

Jeff,
Same idea. If the shop has all the deck plates for every Mopar engine ever manufactured but the 318 I took in, I can safely assume he probably didn't build too many of those.

FE or no FE..
As for the BB thing.. Bigger doesn't make it a Big Block...

It is like the Southern thing. Deeper South you go don't mean you are in Deep South. Like Macon GA, is more Southern than Orlando Florida.

You know what I mean?

Good! Because I don't!

TURK

[Jeff Frigo]

Yea, I get it, I think we mean the same thing.

[Excaliber]

Having spent a few years in various parts of the south, from Key West to Pensacola, Alabama, Biloxi, Nashville, you name it. Makes perfect sense to me!

Anyway, if I was just building a "good ole boy" motor in my garage for farting around town and such, I wouldn't bother with all that "fancy" machine shop work. Which can increase the cost of the "build" by a LOT!

Also, I wouldn't have the block line bored, wouldn't port and polish the heads, wouldn't bother to "port match" the intake/gaskets more than "eye ball", etc. I'm big on new cam bearings, so I'd do that (knock 'em out and push new ones in myself).

In other words, you can still build a decent motor without going the "blue printing" and "balance" route. Just don't expect it to turn 6000 rpm and "live".

Ernie

[Jeff Frigo]

Using deck plates adds whopping $80 extra. All new engines coming out of Detroit and across the pond use them. Its called ring seal. If you can't aford an extra $80 on a muti-thousand dollar engine, give it up.

[Turk]

He lives in Hawai...By the time he pays for food and rent, it is a miracle he can afford the electricity to get on the computer.

TURK

[Excaliber]

"Multi thousand dollar" motor is the KEY phrase there! 80 here, 120 there, another 100 over there, it all adds up.

But, Jeff and Turk are onto something. The builder NOT having the torque plates may speak volumes about his "ability" in general.

We've all heard the horror stories about the "quality" "high dollar" machine shop builds that "blew up" in short order and getting the builder to "stand behind" his work can be like pulling teeth! I'm thinking IF your going to have someone else build it, then go for the whole hog, torque plate, line bore, do it all.

BUT, what kind of WARRANTY maybe a more important question! It's easy for him to "claim" he will stand behind his work, until you show up with a rod through the block and he says, "Yup, you over revved it, your warranty is void"! Torque plate head boring will be the LAST thing on your mind when it all hits the fan!

Brent comes to mind in that regard!

Heck, build it yourself, then when it "blows" you KNOW who to blame, lol.

Ernie

[scottj]

I wouldn't and haven't built an engine without torque plates being used, but that's me. I understand Ernies point though, what IS good enough?

Why not have it hot-honed w/torque plates?

There is a whole lot more to ring seal than just the rings and walls so why not take advantage of the advancements in piston machining and get a set of good pistons and rings, about $4K.

Of course you better have the carb's idle circuit calibrated correctly before you put it on the engine. Otherwise, if it's rich you could damage the rings and the engine could need re-ringing before it leaves the garage.

Seriously though, considering the cost it's hard to justify not using torque plates.

Scott

[Excaliber]

,,,,ah, the price of paradise is high.

Ernie

[Bart Carter]

A machine shop that charges an additional $80 to do it right is not where I would send my work. Using torque plates is a standard by any decent shop.

[cdog]

My 520 was done by Competition Motorsports (ie Jerry) WITHOUT the deck plate. After it blew (who woulda thought) new engine builder was appalled about this.

He said that it is very little extra $$ but is usually done to save time. He rebored it with a plate, but now the clearances are a little more than I would like...still OK for a street motor but they would have been tighter had it been done right initially.

[Excaliber]

A "race" motor is built "loose" not tight, so you got race motor clearances, be happy and go with the flow!


Ernie