BBF Wins PHR Engine Masters!!

[cobrashoch]

Dave- I stand by what I said that Chysler withdrew the hemi from nascar. Hemigloblin(SP) rules were the result of the sohc Ford, true enough. I've talked to my father at lenth on this subject because at the time he wrenched on Buddy Bakers cars, Pettys team mate. I repeat- It was all about sponsorship money. Nascar really didn't want Chrysler out of it in 66 and today those rules are accredited with Chryslers exit in error. It's also true that Chrysler did comply with the new rules when they came back.(sorta like anyhow)
Are you telling me that the 396/427 is a evolution of the 409 and are similar? That def. is the "Chevy" brainwashing coming through bigtime. They are as different as night and day. I can't think of much off hand that is interchangable between early 65-396'sand the 64-409's, though I admit that I haven't built a 409 since the 70's somewhere. No way are they even close to each other though. Don't take my word though, ask any local mechanic.
Lets see- 385 rockers, Yes Cheby rockers sorta fit ,sorta sorta. In aftermarket Roller Rockers they fit a bit better, sorta,sorta. But they hit on the edge of the valve off center, causing premature wear and bent pushrods. That's why they have different part numbers for both. I know, my first first 460 suffered from both problems because I listened to a "Chevy" guy. Yes,he was wrong and so are you on this one.
About the hemi thing and Chevy copying from Chrysler. I re-checked my post above and yep it said polyspherical. Chryslers polyspherical head was a semi canted head that had a cross over
design to the early wedges. They sold them as hemis, and come to think of it they are still doing it in pro stock. The race hemis today in pro stock are closer to twisted wedges.
You may think that the 460 in your boat is a copy of the the BBC. You can't be any more wrong about that though. But you are in that same boat with a big bunch of other guys that think the same thing.
BTW - I'm more of a Chrysler Hemi guy. Drag raced my first one in 66 ala "pop" and had several of em. Been building rods since then too. New to the Ford game though, but I'm for sure not "pro Ford". But facts are facts, and the devil is getting his due.
I also disagree that "Practically any engine design can be built into a winner". What Kasse did was something special, and very, very hard to do. That level of devotion would have been wasted if he didn't have something worthwhile to work with in the first place.
Cobrashock

[cobrashoch]

Misfit41- Read my post above? Weeeeeellllll. Guess what? I totally agree with everything YOU posted above. I can easily add some more horror storys too. Some of my Ford compitition buddys too, and that includes a couple of local Ford bigtime names.
What you are missing is a couple of important things though. And they make all the difference.
1st- 385's got the basic designs right from the get go. They had problems, but they essentially got it about right the first time out.
2nd- They came out late in the muscle car era and didn't have developement time put into them in the hot rod industry, only at Ford.
So todays 385's have benifited from some 35 years of hot rod hare-e-caree development and survived, and won. MUCH MORE than their share.
As for me, I can't argue with that practical experience, as a very old, retired, warmed over, worn out, semi experienced, hillbilly hot rodder.
cobrashock, aka 426 hemi Ron
P.S. - That's also what happened to the 426 hemi, it fell from grace and lost development time in the 80's, and it too came back from the dead.
PPS- I also owned several BB Corvettes from 66 to 73. So I've wrenched a few Rats or two in my time too. So I'm really not fickle either.

[cobrashoch]

Bandit-1 Hi guy, I'm back. RE; Aluminum blocks weight. What alloy 385 block is lightweight? It's for sure not a SVT block. Either one. There were a few guys out there in the early 80's making lightweight blocks but I don't know of any that survived. I know Gliddens blocks were weight reduced by grinding them down, but they were the then SVO blocks and I assume he got the pick of the litter. For that matter I know of no one other than Ford that sells alloy blocks anymore. Is your block a factory shotgun block? And if so do you know what it weighs? I seem to remember a bit back that you bought/found a factory crate motor and tore it down.
My engine weighs 545lbs with the supercharger minus the headers, air compressor and the carb.
No buts here though, and it's for sure it's not a warmed over chevy.
cobrashock

[jdean]

did you say it was an iron block? With alum.heads? even so, that is lighter than I would have thought. How did you weigh it?

Just curious since, as you know, it is hard to figure out realistic weight on these based on what you read everywhere.

John

[cobrashoch]

Simple - I weighed it by weighing the car both before and after pulling the engine, while I was mocking up the car. I used certified truck scales at two places and did this procedure twice. Believe me I did a bunch of mockup pulling of that damn engine, and it was dry. That was the high number too btw. A couple of readings were a few pounds lighter. I also used Blue Thunder Chevy port heads and I believe they weigh a few more lbs. than the Ford "b" and "c" head. Don't know anything about the "a' head or the Boss head. The Edelbrock head is lighter than all of em' though.
As a aside, I know too that a FE built the same way as a 385 will weigh about + or - a few lbs, about 100lbs lighter, dependent on the castings used for both engines. My blower DIVE iron production 385 block was not ground and sanded on to reduce weight either. On a 385 you can loose about 25lbs that way, don't know about a FE. I too hear and see lots of stupid stuff about engine weights. Did you know that a iron 426 Hemi is about 60lbs lighter than a iron 396/375hp Chevy? Tis' true because I weighed both. I kinda look at that stuff and file it in my memory. That's also why I get a good laugh at the smallblock/bigblock weight thing. LOTS of iron smallblocks out there that weigh more than my engine, let alone most Cobra FE's. cobrashock

[James Neal]

I love it ! Chevy, Ford and Chrysler. I like what Cobrashoch has to offer it is the least offensive and equally biased opinion out there. I ran several Big Block Chevys inthe 80's and these babies in there relatively stock trim. Ex: Cam, roller carb N2o would smoke them all on the street dollar for dollar, because when your racin' it is how fast for how much.And theres always one faster. In the 90's I went Blown Alcohol drag racing with a Rodeck 437" combo I bought from Ken Lowe UDRA champion, this beauty built great power but frequently broke due to its high rpm useage we shifted at 11,500 with a B&j trans and a triple disc. At this time Blain Johnsons oldsmobiles (this is a Gm for you Chevy nuts) were destroying the competition with his new Wedge head, sooo NHRA decides lets even it up and dump weight on wedge head dragsters end of going fast on current Budget, besides the Chevy never ran faster than a 6:28. About that time I run across this great deal on a nice K.B. HEMI Built buy Ken Veney and Don Gerarrdot, this complete like new motor cost less to operate and purchase then the parts for the Chevy deal. First time out of the box a 6:21 and a best of 5:95 in that car it ran an 85 in a new Chassis. We ran it four years never hurt it, Just normal wear and tear.And to this day nothing runs like a B.B Chevy on the street for the money, nothing runs like a HEMI at the track for the money. And Ford S__K ! So thats why I'm building a big inch Ford With lots of N20 cause it looks pretty, but I was recently quoted saying if I go racin' again its Blown or I'mnotGoing! By the way these Chicago boys in the big red Mustang and a Procharger are running some impressive numbers with a little bitty Small Block. My 2 cents

[James Neal]

one other thing I wanted to say 348 and 409 are only similar to the 396 and 427s by that little Bow tie on the valve cover, I threw enough broken ones away to know,they don't like horsepower and main bearings.Didnt Ford have the first V8? there all just combustion Engines and a true Mechanic can see through the B.S. and make them run. And the rich guys can make anything run!

[cobrashoch]

James - Interesting that my experience with BB Chevys was about the same as yours, I couldn't keep the dog gone things glued together in the long haul either. The only Brodex Chevy engine I ever built was (few years back) I built one for a neighbor's kid and his Camero. He was a holy terror at IRP that summer, won all kinds of trophys. It broke too, but it wasn't the engines fault when it went. He also couldn't handle my Hemi Challenger that I had at that time.
As for my Ford engines, I am "fairly" happy with the whole package overall, and I think YOU will be too. I really like the fact that they stay glued together. I do however have a Mopar "Mega" block waiting in the corner of the garage if things get really tough.
A local Indy hillbilly named Billy has had "some" success running small Fords too. His ol' man was a pretty fair country mechanic too.
cobrashock

[misfit41]

I still contend that for a home built motor,using stock parts,a 427 fe is the horsepower and durabilty king.However I will also agree that when you put after market parts,modern research and development,and the dollar per hp ration into it,there are better choices.
The way I see it from a back yard mechanic point of view,ford center oil block,ford rods and crank,eldebrock heads,good cam and intake set up,thats an easy 425-475 horse power balanced and properly assembled with a 6800 rev limit is bullet proof,In my experience you cant say that about any other engine to come from detroit. then there is that awesome sound,,,Tk

[cobrashoch]

Actually I don't like the way a FE oils the bearings. Neither did the factory because thats why they went to a side oiler design. And even it is still a poor design. All of todays engines (ex. Clevlands) use the same basic priority oiling systems. That said, even a top oiler is very adiquate for street cars and of course we have came somewhere else with bearing designs since the 70's, and that helps todays FE's much more than 385's. Can't argue with the sound or weight issues of FE's though. As for strength of blocks, even a production 2 bolt 385 block is much, much stronger than a FE/SO block. And that's not just my own opinion either. Sorry.
cobrashock

[misfit41]

as I said ,I was talking simply easy horsepower,there are so many varibles I suppose theres no way to compare.
I really dont dissagree with any thing posted here,but I would add the fe oiling system is proven fine in all but circle track competiton in all out stock cars,there are many millions of miles on these motors in cars up to heavy trucks with no problems,that said though,the latter system is undoubtly best.
My point is still the same,, stock block,10.5 to one,out of the box heads,cam,intake and carb,check the numbers ,nothing else comes close to an fe,especially the 427,a 390 will basicly put out the same hp as a 429 or 460 using this scale,but like i said,I have a simple point of view.Tk

[Mr.Fixit]

I just wish Ford put a few more head bolts around each cylinder.

The engine contest would have been neat if instead of having restrictions such as "factory style heads only" they just threw them all a parts budget and see how much HP per $ they could get. That's how most of us pick an engine combo, "How fast can I go with $xxx"

[cobrashoch]

Mr Fixit - I wish they would put just "one" more bolt around each cylinder. Would make ALL the differance on blown engines. I believe the Engine Masters comp. rules requires stock iron OEM stuff as a basic starting point and they limit the carb. that you can use. What is really so impressive about this is Kaase beat out all of those square port Chevy headed engines. Bet he had more that just a couple hours in working on those heads! Don't remember seeing any Hemi's or FE's. in the comp. That in itself says something.
cobrashock

[Mr.Fixit]

Kaase also designed those heads, so I would say he was ahead of the curve in knowing what combo makes them work.

[SVO460]

About the weight issue, the FE is heavier, close to 700 lbs in it's all iron glory, around 50 lbs over the 460's. Kinda a moot point in my opinion. Thats not a big difference. I sold my "crate" 460 to a buddy who weighed it before dropping it in his car, complete but no carb it was 518 on a 'load beam' scale.

>The way I see it from a back yard mechanic point of view,ford center oil block,ford rods and crank,eldebrock heads,good cam and intake set up,thats an easy 425-475 horse power balanced and properly assembled with a 6800 rev limit is bullet proof,In my experience you cant say that about any other engine to come from detroit.

I'll beg to differ with that too. My "crate" 460 was screwed together at home from a bone stock for a 77 Lincoln 19k mile remanufactured engine that was .040 over and filled with recon'd rods crank and cheapo cast pistions.
Since the engine was done the money I would have spent on basic machine work went for the SVO aluminum CJ heads, C460 cam (.588/.614) which I had Fast Times do a 'little' clean up work on, Performer RPM port matched, with a Holley 950 HP double pumper. The similarities with your FE build up above...Ford block/rods/crank, aluminum aftermarket heads, good cam and intake. No 'power balance for my 460. That combo pushed my 4300 pound with driver Galaxie to 11.6-7's at 116+ with best shift points coming at 6800. Bullet proof...never a problem in the 10k I had it or several thousand my buddy had it before he pulled it to go with a stroker crank and much better rods. This would also pull to 7000 easy, probably more but times started going down. After changing to a 3.00 rear end I took it twice on a 600 mile each way road trip, drove it regularly (except for 'salt' season) and would idle down to 750 in gear and pull away from a stop (driving lawfully ) smoothly.
Your right though, you cant say that about any other engine from Detroit as the 460 would trump the FE by about 100 hp under the same conditions.

[misfit41]

I dont want to argue the same old thing,,but thats just inaccurate,even the most of the 385 guys would dissagree with the weight factor.
a 427 side oil block weights 200#, a ford svo 460 comes in at 300, as well as a bbc,an svo 351 windsor block weights 206,these numbers are out of an old ford svo catalog,from my own experience the 385 heads outweight fes by over 25 lbs each.
I am tired of this thread.
Tk

[SVO460]

Before you throw a hissy fit.. I just got here.
You also conveniently omitted (an attempt at deception??) the intake manifold weight difference which incorporated about 1/3 of the FE's head. You also omitted the deep skirt design of the FE's, and your comparing a stronger SVO block rather then a production block.
I find it hard to believe with more modern casting techniques, better engineering designs that Ford would have taken a step back for the FE replacement.
BTW what special SVO catalog do you have? I looked in my SVO catalogs going back to '95 and don't see any block weights for a single iron block and absolutely no '385' block, only the aluminum 351 at 136 and 127 lbs and the 302 at 97 lbs.

[cobrashoch]

SVO460- RE; weghts, your wrong on this one. The 427SO block was the heaviest standard production FE block due to its webbing. And it was still some 80 lbs lighter than the lightest late model 80's 460 block. A aluminum SVT 460 short deck block weighs exactly the same as my DIVE production block due to increased webbing in the SVT block. I know, I own both. A DOVE 2 or 4 bolt main iron block weighs about 20 more than a DIVE block with the lightest 460 block being a 90's truck block. ALL of the high deck iron and aluminum SVT 460 blocks are heavier than production stock iron blocks. The production heads and intakes of both FE's and 385's weigh about the same, all things being equal though. The Edelbrock listing I have shows their aluminum FE heads (2 each) are only 8 lbs lighter than a set of 460 heads. A 352/390/410/428 dependent on year are ALL lighter than a 427SO though,,,,,,,,,
BTW- I'm a sorta 385 type of guy. But no one in their right mind would fool with a 427SO Cobra or badmouth them. They are still very much competitive with anything out there. And that includes my blown 385. For me it's a cost factor, I don't want to take the chance of messing up expensive parts foolin' with hot rods. So it's a 385 for me. Then there's that damn Shelby block,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
cobrashock

[misfit41]

Thanks Ron for commenting better than I could,webbing or no webbing,the FE is just plain smaller ,so it makes sense to weight less,but I realize that comes with cubic inch limitations as well.
I tried to paste the weight chart I have but I cant figure it out,I am happy to share if some one tells me how.
11.6's ? thats one bad ass 4300 lb boat,thats as fast as maybe half the 2400# cobras running around,maybe you should check to see if a freight train hit you in the rear at the line. And to think of all that money ford wasted to build the Thunderbolt. Tk

[SVO460]

Ron, 80 lbs lighter...what does it weigh? What does it weight complete? You got both, weigh them and post the actual weights. The guy I sold my 460 to weighed it at 518 lbs complete with oil but minus carb. Assuming the head/intake combo is about the same that would put an aluminum head/intake FE under 440 lbs???? I find that very hard to believe until I see it on a scale.
It's a known fact the SVO CJ heads are 35 lbs lighter then stock, add 70 to 518, thats 588. I'll guess on the intake weight based on iron and an aluminum Performer for 351's I have and just weighed at 40 & 15 lbs, maybe 60 tops and 20 tops (iron/aluminum '385' intakes). Add that 40 extra for the iron intake and we have 628 for an all iron 460.
Published weights are an ok starting point but keep in mind over the years they may change the way they weight them, did it have a flywheel or flexplate? With or without cast iron exhaust manifolds? Water pump? Aluminum intake? Brackets and accessories?
Actual weights, an '89 351 block, bare with main caps/bolt... 163 lbs. Iron complete 460 head from '77 TC... 70 lbs.
Iron E5 windsor heads complete... 48lbs, as mentioned above iron&aluminum 351 intakes... 40 & 15 respectively.