BBF Wins PHR Engine Masters!!

[jdean]

Chevy, Mopar, Olds, Buick, Cadillac - eat your hearts out!

Word is out that the BBF 460 entered by Jon Kaase beat out all competitors by a decent margin. Note that there were 50 entries chosen to start with, including many heavyweights in the Chevy camp such as Joe Sherman Racing, winner of the small block Engine Masters.

We all knew the Ford "385" was inherently a better design than the others, and Kaase has proven it. I cannot wait to see what whining or excuses the Mopar and Chevy apologists come up with on this one.

If you want to run the big block with the proven bragging rights, go with the Big Ford baby!!

John

[BANDIT 1]

I have said that the 429/460 (385 series) Big Block engine has been the "Ford Big Block racing engine of choice for the last 30+ years" several hundred times on this Forum.

It's time the FE boys accept what the Dodge and Chevrolet boys have known for some time....

[Anthony]

That's why Ford stole the design from chevy, it's a great design. Your're actually running a chevy design.

[Back in Black]

Telling us that the big block is just for cruising and bragging rights, and the small block is for racing ? hmmmm..??

[decooney]

I would tend to agree its a better design than an original iron block FE. I wouldn't want to be up against a well prepared 460+ in a drag race, thats for sure.

However, how does a 385 series iron motor compete against an aluminum 427/489 stroker Shelby FE (in a Cobra) on a road race course? Just wondering...when you say FE's are you including this motor too?

I tried lifting an iron 460 block, lifted my 428CJ block, and then lifted a Shelby Aluminum block, and must say that 460 is a heafty block and then some. Impressive, but I would not choose one for a handling car... IMO. There are some fast FEs at the drag strip now too. The sound is what makes me a diehard for FEs.

[jdean]

Not a good comparison to compare an aluminum Shelby block FE to the iron 385...let's talk instead about the aluminum 385 block...then I don't think you have a chance any way you look at it - maximum size, heads, etc. A 485ci FE?.....remember, you can go up to over 700 cubes with a tall deck 385.

Anyway Duane, I think there were FEs in the BB challenge, and if so they gave it their best shot. I'll see where their numbers and ranking came in.

But the point is not Ford vs. Ford, it is Ford big iron against all the others.

See, even now the Chevy fans are trying to get some of the credit by saying their design was copied.

You just can't get there from here with an FE of any type.

[cobrashoch]

Actually the 1966 - 396/427 was designed with airflow in the heads as it's chief design parimeter. A 385 engine was designed with something else very much in mind, as they were built to accomidate 500 cubic inch motors in the future. There really is very little between the two that shares common design, so a 385 is in no way a copycat what so ever. That being said, todays BB race/hot- rodded engines have evolved into what is commonly called the "Chevy" setup as being the way to max. performance. If the Ford 385 did win such a shootout the victory was hollow IMHO, as I'm sure any competitive custom build used a "Chevy" setup.
As for FE's, a Shelby block is light, light, light. Did I mention they are light? That's all so important in a Cobra. But I'm not fond of a FE's combustion chamber and it's resulting port design either. I do like the firing order of FE's as this gives them a favorable torque "bounce". But a 385 still wins, hands down, for power between the two Fords.
Also, I've been saying this for years. A FE block is really a medium sized block. When they came out they competed with 383 Mopars, and 348 Chevys. A FE's weight/size characteristics make it a medium sized block, NOT a big block. It's more in common with the small Chevy block, it's chief compititon at the time they came out.
And to flame the 385 guys, the aluminum low deck 385 blocks weigh the same as production iron blocks. (depends on casting dates of the iron blocks) No weight savings there folks. Sometimes the iron is lighter. High deck aluminum blocks are heavier yet.
Cobrashock - 385 w/Blue Thunder Chevy ported heads, and Chevy crank setup- supercharged for the heck of it.

[Anthony]

Ron, you even said it yourself, your engine, a 385, has blue thunder heads with "CHEVY EXHAUST PORTS". The heads are so close in design, they can incorporate chevy exhaust ports.

The BBC was actually desiogned in 1963/64 after several initial designs, finally designated as the Mark IV design, first offered in a production car in the 1965 vette/Impala. It was designed for NASCAR racing, and since NASCAR stipulated a rule enacted in 1964 outlawing the 426 hemi and 427 SOHC, and mandating production engines for racing, chevy designed the "canted valve" head as a more econimical/production high-performance engine design than a expensive hemi head design to qualify it for NASCAR racing. Mopar bit the bullitt and offered the street hemi in 1966 to qualify it for NASCAR. Ford eventually came out with the Tunnel port, a less expensive design than the SOHC. I'm sure because the Chevy design proved so successful, Ford decided to copy it for their engines in the late '60's.

Yeah, the engines are not identical, as I'm sure GM would have sued Ford, and I don't think the canted valve angles are the same either, but it is the same basic head design that Ford used for it's Boss 302, 351C, and 385 engines. Ford couldn't copy the superior exhaust port either, which is why Blue thunder offers a head with the chevy port.

The BBC and 385 ford even take the same rocker arm. Yeah, the 385 has a higher deck and larger bore spacing than a BBC to allow for a bigger displacement, but to me, it's still basically the same engine design.

[cobrashoch]

Anthony - Where do you get this stuff? Form a Chevy hot rod book? Where do I start? The original 63/64 Daytona mystery engine was a modified 409 block that had a simi canted valve setup. It was the fore runner (Mule) of the production 396 and NEVER raced successfully in Nascar. The Daytona mystery engine was retired because it was not competitive, even with the other Chevy entrys. They were power down to the Hemi by over 250 horsepower! In 65/66 Nascar didn't outlaw the Hemis, they were withdrawn by the factory. In part hemigloben(SP) rules were a factor but the fact is Chrysler was in a war with Nascar over sponsorship money. Ford was spending over 12 dollars for Chryslers one dollar at the time. Then G.M. up'ed the talley and little Chrysler was getting edged out! So in 65/66 the hemi was withdrawn and Fords tunnelport won the manufactors championship that year. The next year the hemi was back and it was all Chrysler, and so on, yata ya ya. Hemis went on to race in Nascar well into the mid 70's.
As for Chevys famous canted valve setup it was a direct COPYCAT of the Chrysler polyspherical (hemi headed) engines of the 50's. Chevy even tried to peddle the famous piston speed data test sheets as their own, when in reality it was open data for everyone from Chrysler.
Now let me address this common miss-conception that, only the Chevy crowd has, is that is a 385 is a copy of the a Chevy rat. Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING is the same. The original 67 blocks are much heavier and stronger, the angle canting on the heads are much different and are canted to the intake runner side. And the 385 was the fore runner to the Cleveland designs. I won't even get into what was going on at Fords developemental departments, but in a word they were given blank checks.
A common problem, that is lately going away, is that 385 have been built too much like Chevys and not as 385's, but don't confuse that with what is called the "Chevy" BB engine setup. They are 2 very different things. There is a small block standard and now there is the Honda standard. As to Chevys Nascar success in the 60's. What success? There was none. They weren't even in the same league. The Chevy rat was successful however in muscle cars, and the rest is history.
Yes my Blue Thunder heads are a Chevy setup. But the Ford "B" and "C" heads make more top end power. I built my engine with something else in mind. And Chevy folklure had NOTHING to do with it.
As for the rocker arms, they are NOT the same. Check with any cam seller. Thats part of the misconceptions that only the Chevy crowd has about these engines. About the same? Not even close!
cobrashock

[misfit41]

I havent a doubt that the 385 at max ci is maybe the best all out drag racing engine,heavy and ugly,but it does make power.
I am still a die hard fe fan,like someone else said I LOVE the sound and feel,and no one can deny a multi carb fe is the best looking motor ever to come out of detroit.
This brings me to my point.if a contest was held at say ,460. ci max, gas and naturally aspirated,which design would win the horse power race ? I would like to see that.

[jdean]

and I do not believe anyone entered an FE. I do not know why unless they felt the "385" had the better chance against Mopar and Chevy vs. the FE. Rules limited ci. to 470, which could easily have been accomodated by an FE.

As for the idea that the winning Ford was a "Chevy" set-up, this notion is false. The winner had Ford Super Cobra Jet heads, designed by Jon Kaase. Here are the specs for them, which clearly show they did not use the Chevy exhaust set-up (like Blue Thunder uses as an option):


Original intake and exhaust port size and location

Original bolt patterns, intake and exhaust

Original valve cover height and bolt pattern

Original valve diameter and length

Original chamber size (72 CC)

Look it up at www.jonkaaseracing.com

Keep in mind that the Chevy contenders arguably had twice amount of options on parts choices, with head options galore.

Two points here:

1) The FE is a cool, powerful, expensive and accurate engine for many vintage vehicles, with many modern parts choices. But it is an older design that, all things being equal, will fall short of what the 385 can do, with the exception of weight. This thread should celebrate the Ford win as an underdog against Mopar (the perennial winner in these types of contests) and Chevy, not deteriorate into the Ford vs. Ford debate.

2) The Ford won without ANY credit to share with Chevy. Shame on the Chevy entrants, with superior resources they had at their disposal. Good indication that "385" design contributed to the win.

John

[cobrashoch]

misfit41- Without any doubt, cube for cube the 385 will make more power, PERIOD. That said there is a lot more to a engine than just its power. How it revs, economy to power ratios, weight, size and so on. Overall a FE is very competitive. I too love the sound of open headers in a FE Cobra and in Thunderbolts. Wild is the word that comes to mind. For you FE guys there is hope at the end of the tunnel too. Word is, a couple of heads manufacturers are looking at new design heads for FE's, and they look very promising. Maybe those new Genesis blocks will drive the costs of building FE's down to a more respectable level, compaired to 385's that is.
John - I think your last post mirrored what I was trying to say above it. Like many others I would love to peek at those winning heads. Bet they are something special to see. Also interesting on the 385 forum, he said that it was a "relative" short rod setup. cobrashock

[misfit41]

I appreciate your views Ron,it's possible that I am so bias toward fe's that I can't intelligently debate the subject.
I admit most of my experience comes from pretty stock stuff since I worked for a ford dealership from the mid 70's thru the 80's and witnessed the introduction of the 385 engines,which brings me to some probably really stupid views/questions.
I remember having lots of trouble with the new 385 engines ,mostly cooling and valve train stuff,and back then the mileage on a 429/460 wasnt close to a 428 fe,I also remember my 66 fairlane 390hipo dusting a local new torino 429cj,so why the HP difference ? a 427 single 4 fe was rated at 410,but was easily over 450,when a 429 cj was what ,360 ? and I think that was a stretch,compression ratios are comparable,and carburation, I realize emissions play a small part,but why did a 390 hipo put out equal horsepower to a 429cj ? I never understood this.
In my old ford days,NO ONE liked the 385's.techs,dealers or customers,so you can see why I feel the way I do.
I respectfully look forward to your reply,,Tk

[Anthony]

Ron, you're wrong.

Nascar did outlaw the hemi in the end of 1964/beginning of 1965 when Ford announced it was coming out with the SOHC, So Ford never got to race the SOHC in Nascar. Mopar got away with running the hemi in early 1964 before Nascar changed the rules. The hemi was delegated to only drag racing (SS) in 1965 until Mopar agreed to offer the hemi in street cars in 1966 qualifying the hemi for Nascar racing. These are the facts.

The MKIV BBC is an evolution of the 409, which is the MKI engine. The 409 block and the current BBC block are very sinmilar, they take the same connecting rod. The decks are at different angles due to the head/combustion design, but the MKIV block definitely is an evolution of the 409 block. I have a '62 409 380hp solid lifter engine in my V-drive boat.


The rocker arms are interchangeable between BBC and 385 fords. Manufacturers list slightly different ratio's,and different part numbers, but you can interchange them.

The early hemi has rocker shafts, central located plugs, valves opposite of each other in a sideways plane, and a hemi combustuion chamber, and is nothing like a BBC. I know, I have a 392 in my basement. The BBC did carry the "semi-hemi" name, but is nothing like it, in any way, block or head design, other than the slightly canted valves which at that time no other manufactuer had used, to my knowledge. The 392 also is a deep skirt block. You must have your contacts in backwards.

The 385 has semi-canted valves, like a BBC, a wedge chamber, like a BBC, and outside located plugs, like a BBC, rocker arm studs, like a BBC. It's Ford's version of the BBC. I have a 460 in my jet boat.

You can believe anything you want to, and so will I. I have no allegience to anyone. It's apparent to me that you are pro Ford, and thats fine.

I'm sure there are engine tests that show a BBC beating a Ford, and also tests that show a 440 mopar winning, which I have seen. There's more to making maximum power than just the advantage of the engine design alone. Practically any engine design can be built into a winner.

[RACER X #99]

Current list of NHRA drag race records.
http://www.nhra.com/stats/ss_record.html

[Mr.Fixit]

anybody have a link to the test results? a cut n' paste

was it peak HP, area under the torque curve, hp per dollar, what was the metric being tested?

[jdean]

Mr. fixit, here is the web site that explains all the rules, and participants.

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...hallenge/2003/

Results are based on results of 3 Dyno pulls, where the avg. of the 3 HP and Torque numbers are averaged and added together for a total. The winning BBF had a number of 1178. Here is the example from the web site;

PULL #1 AVG. TQ = 482 AVG. HP = 421
PULL #2 AVG. TQ = 485 AVG. HP = 423
PULL #3 AVG. TQ = 484 AVG. HP = 422
AVG. TQ 483.6 + AVG. HP 422 = 905.6 SCORE

If you like engines and the art/science of making power, I think you'll find it interesting.

john

[jdean]

depending on contingency sponsors used. I am not sure what Jon Kaase walked away with, but you can be sure it was a decent amount,

John

[jdean]

or at least not widely publicized before the magazine has a chance to publish the stories.

So you will not see the results of the Big Block challenge until the magazine articles come out in a few months. Right now the results posted, including Dyno info, are from the previous Small Block challenge, won by Chevy of course.

From the BBF "385" web site they do have a thread that reveals some of the numbers.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/threa...eid=1066659048

keep in mind these numbers are the totals of average HP and average torque. the winner of course is the one with the broadest HP and Torque across a range of RPMs on the Dyno pull, or in other words the "most area under the curve".

1) Kaase - Ford - 1178
2) Williams - Chevy - 1148
3) Dulich - Mopar - 1145
4) Brown - Chevy - 1107.9
5) Sherman - Chevy - 1107.1 (last years small block winner)
6) Butler - Pontiac - 1106.6
7) Kidd - Chevy - 1099.8
9) Bishoff - Chevy - 1097.7

[BANDIT 1]

I like the "but's" that the FE boys throw in.

But the 385 series engine is heavy...I have seen several aluminum blocked 460 engines that were very light.

But the 385 series engines were for drag racing and Monster trucks...They didn't exist in 1965 and 1967 so that's why they ended up in the "big" cars and trucks from 1969 - up...

But a 429 Boss had only 375 horsepower and ran like $hit...It is well documented that Ford "overly de-tuned" the engine to put in the Mustang...

But the 385 series engine only makes more horsepower/torque than the FE's in the big cubic inch sized engines...Do you all really believe this?