Cooling questions

[jjtarnow]

I'm sure this has been discussed many times (and I did a search) but there are always new thoughts and ideas so I figured I would bring it up again. I have a 514ci and am wondering what kind of operating ranges you guys view as acceptable.

I have been told that having two push fans and one pull is NOT the best option (I happen to have this set up). The arguement is having the two push fans actually hinders the natural flow of air and prevents cooling. My experience thus far is that the car does not experience any additional incremental cooling benefits when I flip the two push fans on (which I usually do outside 205 water temp). Thoughts?

Josh

[Excaliber]

I did a search on the subject recently and didn't find much, glad you brought it up.

I WAS going to get additional pusher fans to augment my single puller, guess that idea doesn't work! Then I thought I'll increase the rad cap pressure from 13psi to say,,,,,16? But I don't THINK that will help either. Water boils at about 250 Deg F at 13psi so "boil over" isnt' an issue.

I run dead on 180 Deg F when on the highway. In town it will go up to 190-200 fairly quickly in stop and go traffic. In REALLY bad stop and go (try WAIT) and a HOT HOT day it got up to 220+.

I think "base timing" being "retarded" to much at low engine rpm may be a contributing factor to heat buildup.

I figure it like this: Todays cars run 190 t-stats, so 200 or so gotta be "OK". Even 220 isn't "that bad" as long as boil over doesn't happen. I'd rather NOT see that high but I don't think it's hurting the motor.

HERES the problem as I see it:
The carb fuel boils over! At high temps the motor can run leaner than at colder temps. Now the motor WANTS to run lean, but the fuel is boiling and the mixture becomes RICH. Plugs start to foul, possibly the extra fuel is washing down the cylinders and diluting the crank oil?

One CC member mentioned he carried a piece of "foam" to prop the hood open and inch or so when he was doing "parades" or got caught in "stop and go". Fuel boil over was HIS complaint also, I assume letting the engine compartment heat out helps?

I'm gonna try that next time I'm "cruising" Waikiki and get stuck in traffic. Wait,,,,,, I aint cruising Waikiki anymore, as I WILL get stuck in traffic!

13psi cap, 5 core copper rad, 16" puller fan, 180 T-Stat.
Radical motor that wants to RUN, not walk.

[jjtarnow]

The guy that told me about the wasted push fans actually owns a racing team and seems somewhat credible. The other thing I have been told is that the old police cruiser/taxi idea of proping open your hood at low speed/idle when it's really hot actually increases the operating temperature. Supposedly cars are designed to guide the airflow through the radiator and then the engine to allow the block/heads to shed heat. When you open the hood it disrupts the intended air flow and the bottom of the motor (I realize heat rises) suffocates. At idle, clearly the low rpm fan flow coupled with no additional air coming in from forward motion would suggest proping the hood open could be of help. Also, after an exeptionally hot run you should open the hood all the way to allow the heat to escape (although the best possible thing to do is hit the highway and cool it down prior to shut down).

Josh

[vettestr]

Cooling problems are a pet pieve of mine and living in Phx. Az. makes for lots of pieve. As a builder here is my 2 cents, I know there are many ways to skin a cat but this works for me.
If car only overheats in traffic then overall system size is ok with air flow being the issue. You will probably need to tweek system as well as air flow as you may not be able to get enough airflow due to space limits. If it just runs away period then many problems are possible. Many people overlook oil temp as an added heat source so I use oil coolers with sucker fan if possible. I always use a T-stat on oil cooler as you need to maintain at least 200 to outgas contaminates in oil. Then I run a 180 coolant T-stat so system has time to cycle. I like Ron Davis's aluminum rad. but biggest is always best. Use the biggest CFM puller fans possible with shrouds. Aftermarket waterpumps also have better flow than Checker rebuilds! Be careful with RPM reducing pulley on water pump also. I like pusher fans in addition to puller fans. The bit about them blocking airflow when not turned on is bull - they just freewheel from airflow if at speed and direct airflow into rad. I use 15 to 18 pound caps with expansion tanks if possible and check system design for air pockets or reduced coolant flow.
On the tough ones I modify flow by taking coolant from top rear of engine (drill and tap manifold or build nipple into softplug) and route to just under T-stat so increased flow from rear of engine but behind T-stat increases flow volume from hottest part of engine. I also run 2nd remote cooler with fan under car on the impossible cars. There are more little things to do but I am running a 542 inch motor in Phx. at 180 and no more than 200 in traffic. But it is a dry heat on a warm day of about 118 in the shade!!!

[Excaliber]

Air pocket!!! You know, that may be my problem. I never had to add water to the system UNTIL recently when I pulled the radiator to solder up a small hole.

Complete drain and re-fill. Since then it seems to push out a LOT more water than it used to.

[vettestr]

Hey Ernie,
Hope all is great for ya, is this on newest toy?
I am being beat by an air problem that I can not figure out. The car needs to have air bleed from coolant system if parked for very long ( a week ). Never looses any coolant or spill on floor but will be low in engine if checked cold. The expansion tank is level or maybe a rch lower than engine due to space problem.
I think when parked with hot coolant that is pressurized and expanded and allowed to cool it is creating a drop in pressure (vaccum almost). The engine is sealed and all is expanded, then it cools and goes from + pressure to a cool - pressue . When it transitions to the cool (no pressue ) mode it is pulling air by the lip seal on the waterpump ???? Lip seals only work well in 1 direction and if a lower pressure is on the wrong side of lip seal could it pull air into system ??? I have verified it is not combustion gasses in system so where and why.. Im beat

[bigdog]

i have a 460 bored .60 over and it runs about 200 all the time...i had it up as high as 230 on the beltway crusing at 80mpg.i found anything over 80 f outside temp it will run 210-230 all the time...i would like to find away to lower the temp down some whaat...my fan kicks on at 180 and it is a pull fan i think it is 13"...just willing to listen to ideas...thanks bd

[Excaliber]

Jeff, Yup, it's the ERA I just got. The car has not been well maintained over the last few years and needs a lot of TLC, which it is getting! Sounds plausible the seal is letting air on the cool down. I recently installed a temporary overflow catchment (old 1 gallon antifreeze jug). The water pushed out into the jug when hot is not fully returned to the engine when cold. Maybe, 40 to 60% is returned, resulting in a net loss.

For now I'm not adding watere to see if at some point it STOPS pushing water out and thats the new "level" it likes. Which would be LOWER than I had before!

Bigdog, air flow isn't your problem, must be circulation or something.

[Ron61]

Just my $.02 worth. I have pusher fans only on my stroker and the engine builder told me the car would make the best power at 200 - 210. The only time I can get it past 190 is when I am in traffic and I did block the intake once and I really could tell a difference in the way it ran once the temp. hit about 210. My big block is another story. It has always ran around 210- 215 and I have never had any water boil over at all. I am a little suspicious of that temp gauge, but since it is original won't change it. When it is 118 degrees here and I drive it for a while it will go up to about 225 when I slow down but I never notice any change in the sound of the motor like you should get if it is really hot and there is no sluggishness at all, so I know it isn't to hot. That motor is now 35 years old by the way.

Ron

[vettestr]

Hey all,
The EPA would love to see you running about 225 + all the time as it is as clean as it is going to get there and EGT's are also high for the cats. As an engine builder I would like to see 180 -190 and like 50 degree intake air charge driving in halter top 80's outside but life is a trade off.
Ernie , Hope she is just finding its sweet spot.
Bigdog, What T-stat are you running and is it operating right?
Ron61, 225 when it is 118 outside is darn good but bet ya a nickle after much time at 200+ the valve springs are maybe 60 % of original installed pressure but after 35 years I would be tired too !

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Hi,
I got tired of the temp going to 210 or 220 so I put in a new 180 T stat and built a fan shroud for the aluminum rad, mounted the same 16" puller fan on the shroud,now about 2 1/2" back from the rad. WHAT A DIFFERENCE ! Runs at 185* all day long no matter how hot it gets.
The shroud is the cool ticket.
Perry.

[G.R.]

I met a guy up in Port Townsend a couple of summers agofrom Idaho in his Johnex w/a built 460. He had 2- 6" fans about 4-6" from his side louvers. He had been experiencing overheating problems for 2 years in Idaho summer heat-100+. Tried various fixes to no avail,thermostats ,fans-pushers, pullers, drain, bleed the cooling system, in slow traffic his temp would climb to 220+. Happened to have 2 -6" fans that he temporarily rigged up then went out on a 100*+ day into heavy stop and go traffic, as the temp started to climb he hit the fan switch, temp began to drop to it's normal 190. Runs a shrouded 16'' Hayden puller fan
He then made mounts for the fans(nice install btw) and wired another switch into his dash. Since then he said it rarely hits 200*. You could put your hand in front of the vent and feel warm air being expelled w/o the fan, turn on the fan and it really expelled the air. Said he only used the louver fans in stop and go traffic. Otherwise the car maintains temp with airflow.

Can't remember the guys name but he had a Guardsmen Blue w/white stripes Johnex, very neat and detailed, from Boise. He and his girlfriend were on vacation and we met because of the cars and had lunch together.

Thought it was a pretty neat idea.

[Excaliber]

Hmmmmmm,,,,, that reminds of the vent some of the original Cobras had just behind the front tires. Cut a hole, screen over that, and air from the wheel well enters and cools the headers.

[jjtarnow]

How many of you use something like Evans Waterless Coolant?

Josh

[Excaliber]

Never heard of it. Something called "Water Wetter" used with pure water and NO anitfreeze if somewhat common.

I've never been able to find "Water Wetter", either not available in Hawaii or under a different name.

So whats the deal with Evans Waterless Coolant?

[jjtarnow]

The boiling point is much higher and supposedly is a bit more conducive to disipating heat.

[arctic-snake]

yes indeed, water wetter. It's made by REDLINE and available on the internet or through authorised distributors in your area. This stuff works.

[jjtarnow]

I use Evans NPG+...boiling point of 375 degrees.

[jayem]

I just recently installed a cold air intake on my supercharged 351.
I pull air from the hole next to my head light. This was a simple modification that cost me $20 and dropped the temp 10 degrees.

[Janusz]

Perry,

Any photos of your fan shroud? Considering doing the same.