Cooling a 460/Head Gaskets

[wizard]

I have a 460 that has gradually gotten worse with heating problems and some associated vapor lock. To date, cleaned radiator, higher flow water pump, no antifreeze, water wetter solution, 160 thermostat after no thermostat, and timing. A drag racing friend suggests pulling the heads to verify that the gaskets aren't on backwards/upside down/or whatever which might block some water passages. I've been reluctant to try this because of the tightness in engine bay, but I guess I now have no choice. Any thoughts here, before I start the tear down later this week?

Symtoms are a steady warm up with no temperature burp at 160 when the thermostat opens. Temp continues to climb slowly but steadily. When temp reaches about 200, the engine wants to stall at stop lights and then not restart until it cools down, probably vapor lock (gas is boiled in Carb). (I can't put that non heat conducting plate under the carb because of clearance problems.)

I have a West Coast which uses "puke tank" so it's impossible to see if the water is flowing but as it warms up, you do see the water expand as it absorbs heat. Monday I'll be borrowing a radiator cap with pressure guage as an alternate way to verify water flow.

I'm open to all suggestions, even the ones I've already visited.

I bought this car to have fun but sitting in a left turn lane waiting for this puppy to cool down while you block traffic isn't my definition of fun.

TNX to all from Mr Dumas, temporarily shedding the "wizard" moniker

[wizard]

Well, I guess the Mr Dumas moniker will be around for a while.
I could keep quiet but there's a lesson here worth passing on.

DON'T ASSUME ANYTHING AND DON'T OVERLOOK THE OBVIOUS.

I solved my overheating problem today and it's embarrassing to admit that there just wasn't enough water in the system.

Before I was ready to pull the heads, I knew I wanted to take out a line that runs from a "T" in the puke tank to the exit side of the radiator. That line also continues over to the top of the thermostat housing. It's obvious that this setup is designed to assist in filling the system. I rationalized that after the system was full, some water could flow directly from the thermostat housing to the exit side of the radiator and thus not be cooled.

To make a long story short (longer?), I did the romoval and during the refill process, I wound up putting more water in than I took out. So to check things out, I removed the temp sensor in the intake manifold water passage, and still no water there. I wound up adding another 3 quarts of water (tedious process)before I got water out the hole. An adequate test drive in 80 deg weather and I held a steady 180 while cruising and maybe 185-190 at a long light. (I said in my previous post that I had a 160 but after thinking about and seeing my readings I believe it's a 180.)

Moral - No matter how smart you are, you can be stupid, really, really stupid.

[lineslinger]

Air in the cooling system

[wizard]

Yes, and lots of it. The West Coast system requires lots of patience to get it full.

[OCsparky]

Wizard i too have a west coast with a 460 I was wondering how hot you where running?
I too seem to be running a little warm when the outside temps get up around 90 my car gets up to like 220. That just doesn't sound right to me. That sound high to you. I was told by someone that the 460 runs a little warm anyway.

[wizard]

I agree that it sounds a little high and that's in the range mine runs in. I also feel the heat in the foot box when the temps start moving up. I thought I had solved the problem after I discovered the low water level, but that didn't pan out. (It did however stop my vapor lock problem.) I'm just dumb enough to keep pushing though and I WILL figure this out. Last option I tried was taking 10 deg out the distributor's centrifical advance. I am now at 16 initial with 18 centrifical (total 34). Runs great except that it ran a little warmer on my freeway run. I will say that after I got back onto city streets, the temp came back down (210). The day was wamer than my previous test and now I'm beginning to think it's air flow. I upgraded the mustang 5.0 fan that the WC comes with to a dual fan, full shroud unit and that really didn't seem to change things. My next step will be to remove the thermostat (it didn't have one when I bought it) and then maybe looking at fabricating a way to direct more air onto the radiator. I really don't want to pull the heads to check the gaskets, but I'm afraid I may have to. But because of all the work involved in that, I want to make sure I have visited all other possibilities at least once.
If any one has any comments, feel free to jump in. Somewhere on this great forum, I'm sure there's an answer.
YOUSE GUYS with the 514 WC's, where y'all running tempwise??

[wizard]

Any thoughts on a fully shrouded radiator. (This is what I have.) A friend today said that if all the air passing through a radiator on car that's cruising at 60 or 70 has to pass over the fans, it'll actually slow the air flow down because the fans are at a contant rpm. Seems to me though that once you exceed the "speed" of the fans, incoming air pressure would accelerate the fan blades accordingly. I still need to do a stop & go test (next day or two)and see how she does there but none-the-less, I feel 200-210 is too high for high 70's low 80's day and casual driving is too much.

Where are the cooling gurus?

[wboss429]

u never said if it over heats at idle or going down the road,what about water pump pulley size? belt tenision,impeller on pump,did u boil thermastat,our.080 over 460 (514) runs about 160 or 170 on a 95 deg day,with 10,5 to 14 to 1 comp,and the most inportan thing, what about fuel, jets ,and timing?enought int timing? eng total?

[wizard]

wboss429

To say it overheats at idle in stop and go isn't quite true. It just runs much warmer than what I feel is reasonable. Bring it up to temp and she'll be in the 200-210 range. Put on the road, and she'll climb to 220. Put her on the freeway and she'll go to 230. Get off the freeway and she'll come back down to 210-200 but not as quickly as one would think, all this in 78-80deg weather. Obviously I can't wait for the 90's. lol

I think I could live with this if I weren't afraid to take her any distance. I sure would love to go down and meet the guys in Atlanta a time or two and there's a guy from Chattanooga who love to take a few road trips together.

I am getting set up to do some pressure testing tommorow, reverify the stat, add an oil cooler, check the header bolts, etc.

What's really interesting is that it behaves just like it did when I was low on coolant temp reading wise, but at least now I don't have the vapor lock problem.

I WILL SOLVE THIS and when I do, I'll spllatter the answer(s) all over this forum.

Wish me luck. For those in the know, the pool has been fixed and now I shall have the time to go after this pain in the a$$.

[OCsparky]

Wizard what is your oil temp running? I actually have 2 primary fans and one secondary manual switch fan that i can turn on, but that doesn't seem to help much either.

[wizard]

Don't have an oil temp guage or oil cooler either for that matter but that's going to be resolved soon.
I did get a some new info as to what the cause might be and since I've;
1. Replaced the water pump (high flow).
2. Had the radiator professionally cleaned (probably didn't need it)
3. Installed a 180 thermostat (came without one)
4. Converted to 100% water
5. Verified stat is opening
6. Tried a water wetter solution.
7. Verfified system is full
the new info makes the best sense at this point.
The water temp is always 10 to 20, maybe 30 degrees hotter that I would expect for the situation. I'm afraid to push it for fear of doing some serious damage.
Thursday i heard that a leaking head gasket could allow exhaust gases to enter the water jacket which will raise the water temp. Because of the serious pressure difference, the water won't leak back the other way. Run hard and temps go up, slow dow and temps will come down, slowly. I also did some pressure tests Friday and I found them to higher that I would expect. Can a water pump peg a 30 psi guage at 3000 rpm? Should you see 25 psi with the motor idling and at temp? (Yes both my guages are reasonably accurate)
3 ways to find the problem.
1. Sniffer test - some chemical is set down in the rad or surge tank and if it changes color, you got a leak. Talk to a local guy with the tools and he's rather do a full blown cylinder pressure test at $60.00/hr It'll take him an hour just to pull the plugs.
2. Talked to an engine builder friend and he can do the pressure test. I trust him plus I can assist which could help keep my costs reasonable.
3. Go ahead pull the heads and inspect the gaskets.
I'm opting for #2 if I can't find someone else who can do the sniffer test. I've learned over the weekend that there may several others locally who have the equipment. If I have to go with #2, it may be a week to 10 days before he can fit me in.

Right now this seems like the most plausible scenario consistent with my symptoms and knowing of others with 460's and 514's that run a steady 180.

vettestr out in AZ has been a big help with suggestions but anybody with opinions one way or another, jump in, PLEASE. I would especially be interested in water pressure readings at the manifold just ahead of the stat to help determine if my suspicions are correct. Actually if readings are way out of bounds, that in itself could be the smoking gun. Where else could the pressure come from.

[Dominik]

good morning,

as basic as it sounds: it's about airflow, if the mechanicals are okay.
your fans should nor come on at all when you travel at speeds over 30mph.

if they come on, you have to shroud your radiator more. Now yours is fully covered, which is not needed unless you are racing. I feel that underhood temperatures are much lower leaving the upper part of the radiator unshrouded.

that also results in colder feet. Also don't forget, the engine itself radiates a lot of heat, so you need some air flow.

to test your fan's capacity, heat the car up (disconenct the fans) to 210F, park the front of the car near a wall or restrict airflow with cardboard and now let the fans do the work.

that test will cover your stop and go traffic. Temperatur should drop.
Calibrate your water temp instrument!!!

with the radiator nicely shrouded you should be able to travel at 55mph to the next meeting without problems.
if the fans come on (you see that watching the Voltmeter flick for a moment and show a slightly lower reading), you probably have air trapped in the system or a mechanical problem.

keep an eye on your radiator cap, make sure it's not too weak and lets coolant out!

Track racing is a totally different story...
Drag racing: travel back to the pits going moderately fast to improve airflow through the radiator.
Chassis Dyno: you need a very strong fan to simulate airflow at 130 mph +, if you measure in 4th gear at max RPM.

also: make sure your ignition is not too retarded at low engine speeds.
an indicator for this are red hot headers at idle or slow vehicle speed, or melted hoses!

got the idea? :-)

dominik

[ByronRACE]

My engine may be a little weird, but it's still basically a 385 series (460) foundation and it's in a West Coast. I disliked the way west coast did the coolant system. The expansion tank was unnecessary and large, the fill point was relatively low, there was no provision for removing trapped air from the back of the heads, etc. It looked prone to air lock and all the additional plumbing they added everywhere showed they were battling this problem.

I did things differently in my build. I put two fittings in the back of my intake manifold at the water passages to bleed a small amount of coolant forward bypassing the thermostat. I tied these lines into the thermostat housing. The thermostat housing is also the fill point and is the highest point in the engine compartment. Everything from the housing is down hill. I have a burp tank in the front right corner on the end of a 1/4" hose and it's set up to draw the fluid back into the thermostat housing if/when needed. The radiator is West Coast's "10 core" unit that I'm honestly not that thrilled with. It's brass, heavy as hell, and the fin density is poor. I would have done much better with my dollar to have an aluminum one fabricated locally. My water pump is a Meziere WP337 remote mounted low on the passengers side between the steering rack and the radiator. For fans, I have two 13" spal pushers on the front of the radiator with no shroud, and that's it. 1710CFM each.

Idles forever at 180deg F at 900rpm idle. Holds 185-190 at 2500rpm sustained stationary high-idle. Actual use, temp is 180-190. This engine is supercharged as well, so will generate more heat than normal. 2 fans come on if I'm at idle for a long time, otherwise just one. I have a fan controller built into my dash instrumentation.

When I fired this thing up the first time, I just fired it and let it come up to temp, then shut it off and let it cool completely. Then I opened the stop cock on the overflow and drained about 2cups of coolant, popped the cap and added about another 4 cups. That's it...level has remained the same and I've never seen anything out of the overflow since.

Anyway, just thought another combo might be interesting to note.

[kitcarbp]

Hi ByronRace, I am putting my engine in and plumbing the cooling system soon on my WC. Can you send pictures of your lines from the rear of your intake ? I am running a Torker II intake with the carb pad milled down for hood clearance. I am running the SCJ heads from Ford Racing. Thanks

[ByronRACE]

Originally Posted by kitcarbp

Hi ByronRace, I am putting my engine in and plumbing the cooling system soon on my WC. Can you send pictures of your lines from the rear of your intake ? I am running a Torker II intake with the carb pad milled down for hood clearance. I am running the SCJ heads from Ford Racing. Thanks

I'll have to take some better pictures of the engine compartment. I've ripped all the west coast wiring out of the car to redo it my way, so it's not drivable at the moment and it's in a relatively dark garage. I'll see what I can do.

There's a bunch of pictures on www.racesystems.com, but none specifically of what you're asking about.


Byron

[Chick Baruffi]

I have a SPF with a 466 BB Ford and purchased it used with 2800 miles on it. When I first got it, the car ran very hot in slow traffic. It cooled down when I manually switched on my dual fans. After a lot of frustation and looking around I noticed that one of my fans was blowing and the other sucking. A simple switch of wires corrected the problem! Over this past winter I decided to pull the engine down ( Concerned over all the overheating and how the original customer treated it) and found that the intake gaskets were pretty melted and almost broken around the water jackets. I have completely redone the engine and now pulls 662HP on the dyno and 618 ft Lbs of torque at 4500 RPM. The car now runs around 170 degrees during hot 90 degree days. The only problem that I have with the car is shfting the new TKO600. I think that I am going to install a Pro 50 shifter.

[wizard]

I know I've been quiet about this for awhile but I have been busy since Dec. New house and then a new beauty shop for the wife, long story on both. Won't bore y'all with the details.

I have made some progress with the cooling issues when I can squeeze in a few minutes here and there.

First let me clarify that MY problems are more at speed (highway) than at idle. Once the temp does get up, it may or may not come back down, more often not. I've been lucky that I have always been able to anticipate and have gotten the car back home by 220 deg. (I really don't know how it would go.) That does or did limit my range of course.

Now I'm holding 200 to 205 but limiting my speeds until I feel I can do better.

Two major steps got me to this point.

1-Removed the thermostat all together (15 deg drop). This contradicts all that I believe about cooling but I think I know why in my case (educated guess). You need some velocity through the radiator for the radiator to work properly. See the Stewart waterpump company website for a better explanation. My West Coast Cobra uses a 7, yes seven core radiator. More tubes = less velocity through individual tubes given the same overall water rate.
Thermostat = restriction = less(slower) water flow. If someone has a better explanation I'm all ears.

2 Header leaks. I discovered that the headers are a poor match to the heads and finding a gasket solution was tough until I discovered Percy's Dead-Soft Aluminm header gaskets. Not only did I close up 6 of 8 existing 180 deg leaks, the car performs better. I also rewrapped the headers as the old wrap was as they say getting old. This exercise was to reduce engine compartment heat and while I don't have any hard numbers, my water temp came down another 5 deg.

I curently have some Prestone Heavy duty flush in the system and need another hour of running before I replace it. Rad has been cleaned out (twice) but this was to help the block(?).

Head gaskets are going to be replaced as soon as I get a snafu with Edelbrock straightened out. Whether this will help remains to be seen but I need to get it behind me if only to give me peace of mine.

I have checked this thread periodically (lurked) over the past 6 month and I appreciate everyones comments. They say persistence can solve most problems so I'll continue to do so.

[ByronRACE]

I realize I posted before, but I finished my WCC cooling system and did some more testing. Here's what it looks like:



It has the giant WCC radiator (4" thick) and managed to fit twin Spal 13" 1750CFM pushers in front of it.) There is no puller fan. There is no shroud. I removed all the damming I previously installed as a test. It's as shown.

I'm running an electric water pump mounted low and about 3" from the radiator outlet. Mezeire WP-337, 55gpm.

I'm running NO surge tank. My fill point is my thermostat housing as seen here:


There is no header wrap.

No oil cooler.

The block is 1/3rd filled with hardblock.

The engine is supercharged.

Aluminum heads.

Not shown is a coolant overflow bottle in the fender that has a siphon tube to the bottom so the system can burp, then draw coolant back in as needed.

Not shown is a pair of 1/4" coolant lines that come from the rear corners of the intake manifold and terminate at the thermostat housing to carry a small stream of coolant forward at all times to eliminate trapped air at the back of the engine should there be any.

Elevated 1500rpm driveway idle test with both fans running; I can't get the engine above 145deg F. I have to turn the fans off to get the oil warm. If I do that and bring the engine up to 180deg F then turn the fans back on, it pulls it back down to 145deg F within about 5 minutes. Previously, it was running hotter than this...that was due to retarded timing and rich mixtures that created a lot of header heat. Now it runs about 28-34deg of spark at idle (computer controlled, EFI deal...bounces around), and is running a lean 14.7:1 AFR and cooling has become a non issue. I'll let you know what it does on the road; it's had very little trip time thus far...but so far so good.

Byron

[wizard]

Finally got my gasket set back from Edelbrock. They are not marked "up" or "front". They are symetrical front to rear except that there is an extra square hole on one end. Since the heads are the same, does this mean that the gaskets go on with one square hole at the back and one at the front or do I flip one over to get these "special" openings at the same end of the block and if so front or rear. I can call Edelbrock on Monday but think I might get any needed advice above and beyond here. God, I hope this works.
Also, there are two openings which allow heat to rise up to the carb. I've heard that these can be blocked to get a cooler running carb. What's the best option here? Many thanks in advance.

[wizard]

Any gasket gurus out there?