Help...!!!

[Eliems]

At 800 miles my newly built 460 had #7 exhaust lobe wiped off the the cam and the engine builder/machine shop suggested it was poor brake-in procedure but agreed to pay 1/3, with the mechanic paying 1/3 and me 1/3.

The new cam ran for 20 minutes and four lobes were ground off of it!

Now the machine shop is saying this is because of modern oil with no zinc/ moly and that for the last two years it has been happening a lot.

What should I believe here?


The specs are here ... http://www.tricityevents.com/CobraEngineSpecs.html

Thanks, Greg.

[JBCOBRA]

Sorry to hear that. Pretty cool that everyone is kicking in some $$$
That is why my builder uses/recommends Valvoline VR1. It has all the stuff to make things last.

[Tom Wells]

Yo Greg,

Go here and ask the same question: http://www.460ford.com/index.php

These guys deal with that question every week, and for the 460 specifically.

Hope this helps,

Tom

[SCOBRAC]

It's a huge problem and probably true. Barring something strange like a roller rocker breaking it's restraining clip or other mechanical failure, defective cam, etc. It was probably the oil. I'd suggest a Lucas oil additive until you can run a decent synthetic oil. Here's what Hot Rod Magazine had to say...

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ppet_cam_tech/

[Tim Brewer]

You need to remove your large valve spring while breaking your engine in. I'm sure you also have solid lifters, right?
Tim

[elgecko]

Rotella oil....it has the good stuff.

[HighPlainsDrifter]

Greg,
There are a couple things you can do.
1st- you are using a jobber cam,get a good comp cam.
2nd- use only Crane cam lube,thick black moly paste.
3rd, use Shell rotella 15W40 oil ,it has the additives in it,after break in use 1/2 shell and 1/2 pennzoil 10/40 oil.
4th- If you are using stock non adjustable rockers you MUST check the lifter preload clearance.
Perry.

[Eliems]

Thanks guys! I am passing these ideas on to DBM Auto who have my car.

Question ... I am considering going to a Roller Cam up-grade. Is this a good choice and can it be done on the 429/460 easily?

[Excaliber]

Cam failure has been hotly discussed in a few threads here on CC, it is STILL a burning issue.

The Hot Rod article above (thanks SCOBRAC) is perhaps the best I've read to date on the subject. And I read a LOT about it because I'm running a flat tappet. Hot Rod suggests, among other things, using an engine break in additive ALL the time, even after break in. THAT was a question that has never been answered before here on CC.

Removal of the INNER valve springs is critical for proper cam break in. Run the engine at 2000 rpm or better and vary the rpm for 20 to 30 minutes minimum. Actually after runng my engine for 20-30 minutes during break in I LEFT OUT the inner springs for a couple of hundred miles and kept the rpm low during that time to allow MAXIMUM break in of the lifters\lobes. Probably NOT required as I understand if you didn't 'get it right' during the first 30 minutes, you ARE going to loose the cam shortly there after no matter what you do.

The reason Hydraulic roller cams are now becoming so popular is simple: With the additional oil pressure\feed to the hydraulic lifter the lifter ROLLER bearings get oiled up real good. With a traditional solid roller lifter does NOT get pressure feed oil and the lifter ROLLER bearings WILL fail due to oil starvation when used on the street. Solid rollers are for a RACE motor application where rpms are HIGH and there is sufficient SPLASH to oil the rollers. Lower rpm street use will kill a solid roller within a few thousand miles (mine went 8K before it failed). There ARE new solid roller lifters now available that address this problem, but not all blocks can use them and they are expensive. Thus, roller hydraluics are more popular. Me? Screw hydraulic lifters, real men run solids (flat tappet for me baby)!

[Tom Wells]

Yo Eliems

I have 16K miles on my Crane 359351 hydraulic roller cam and it has been great in the 521. Highly recommended! They have three other grinds now for your choosing pleasure, one hotter and two less aggressive

It's a bit expensive, but waayy worth it.

A caveat: be sure to buy Crane's steel distributor gear and make sure it is correctly installed! Don't ask me how I know this...

Tom

PS: EDIT: Be sure you get the correct springs for whatever cam you buy. The triple springs for the solid rollers are good for 3-5K miles!

[rdorman]

The guys hit the big ones... zinc (ZDDP) look for a CI-4 or CH-4 rating.. I recently swithed to full synthetic rotella t 5w-40 for this reason. Proper break in and break in lube (The motor MUST fire and stay running immediately) both on the cam and lifters on install and also on the additive (like from crane etc).. of course varying the rpm all above 2000 during the initial break in period. Use of break in springs (often just the outer)... depending on the pressures you are running, may not be required. Check with the cam manufacturer. Other sources of problems are improved oil control (yep, double edge sword), improper restrictors, etc. EDM lifters are nice but often (most of the time) require a restrictor change.

My concern, if it you did all that right, and you wiped a new cam during break in alone, you have other issues. Could be that the lifters are not in proper relationship to the cam or a number of oiling system related issues, spring pressures and/or valve train geometry. Lack of zinc is an issue but your problems are coming on way to quick for me to beleive that is the sole problem.

Why is your shop not breaking in the motor for you? I would not do business with a shop that does not. Then, they can't say I broke it in wrong! Good luck to you.

[ByronRACE]

Consider a roller valvetrain.

When considering the cost, consider how much it would be be worth to you to not have this happen again. All that metal should be cleaned out of the engine at a minimum; and the metal probably has trashed your machine work and bearings if it ran for any length of time. Ugly failure mode.

Another option is the new radius bottom composite lifters. Shubeck makes them. Also not cheap, but a completely different game in regard to wear.

Byron

[CarsByCarl]

As pointed out by the others, the problem is with the oil. The new spec doesn't have the additives needed for flat tappet cams. You need to either run standard passenger car spec oil with an additive, or switch to diesel oil. There is no danger with diesel oil unless you have fuel injection.

Believe it or not, a simple bottle of STP contains enough zinc to bring modern passenger car oils up to the same level of zinc as diesel oil.

I've recently switched to Isky Rev-Lube on the cam and Rotella 15-w40 for break-in after twenty years of 10w-30 and moly paste because of this issue. Rotella also makes a 5w-40 synthetic that would be a good choice after 1500 miles of conventional oil use.

[Eliems]

Going to a Roller Cam set-up seems to be the answer. The Machine shop that built the engine is telling me the cam and kit will be $1050, (920 US), Canadian their cost, coming up from the US. I pay parts, they cover labour.

Does this sound right to those of you who know about such things?

What (mild) cam (brand) are you recommending for my 429/460?

[Scufty]

what a bunch of crap that it was the oil. There is NO need to run Synthetic oil. People have been running GOOD OLE oil for years and I have never heard of an "oil" related breakdown in my life....as in TYPE of oil ..no No oil or low oil pressure etc fine ...I have a very good friend who has been building engines for 35 years right up to Nitro and he has NEVER used a litre of synthetic in his life ...Now as for the cam ..I have heard of some bad cams the last few years doing exactly what youjust stated ...Has NOTHING to dowith your oil ..they are a bad batch of cams ...what kind of cam was it bhy the way? Anyone who wants to use synthetic fine but you DONT NEED to..

[Scufty]

Sorry forgot to add a few things ....The reason ..(and nobody has actually stated it yet) that you need to keep your RPM's above 2000 is so that the lifters will spin during break in ....and I certainly dont agree that "you need to go to a roller setup" No you dont.... You can go to a good ole solid lifter and cam and there is no reason that you should have a issue...
Also you need to change the cam and lifters at the same time of course


Just my 2 cents ..cheers

[jaxssnake]

I too lost a cam during break-in.I too agree that there is nothing wrong with traditional oils other than the fact that ALL zddp has been removed from the oil.This is a crucial element during break-ins.If you read the article in hot rod that was mentioned it goes into great detail.Almost all good engine builders agree and recommend running only on the outer springs till after break-in.Almost all posts are on the money.I chose to go to a hydraulic roller cam as they need no break-in Regards Jack

[Eliems]

Turns out that my Cam is so mild there is only one set of springs on the valves anyway.

After having this happen twice in a row I am not comfortable with going the flat lifter route a third time. I am getting a slightly more aggresive Cam with the roller/hydrolic cam and lifters and they tell me there is less resistance, less noise and more power as a bonus. AND NO BREAK-IN!

Bad news (other than the money) is that it will be a week for the cam to come and then measurements made for custom pushrods, then one week for manufacture and another week for delivery! Another month without my car.

[ffindling]

As Byron has suggested, after two successive and rather abject camshaft
failures, I would probably strip the engine completely down, get the block
tanked again and once clean, check for any misalignment of the camshaft
tunnel and carefully check for any cracks. Cracks in certain places can certainly
cause oiling-related problems. If there are any 385 experts in the area, get them
to inspect the block as well, the more eyes, the better. Hold off on installing
new cam bearings until the saddles have been checked for cracks. Clean, clean,
and clean the oil galleries before doing reassembly. Spun camshaft bearings
aren't unknown in 385's and it can be an expensive fix. But there is no reason
a flat tappet camshaft shouldn't live in your 385 especially with low seat
pressure springs.

....Fred

[Eliems]

Machine shop is saying, "Put the roller cam in without removing the engine, the metal filings will have been caught in the oil filtre."

They said if I insist on sending the engine out for inspection of the bearings, they will charge me if the bearings are OK.

I am pretty sure the mechanics can remove the oil pan and inspect the bearings without pulling the engine and I have asked them to do this.

If the bearings look good and the oil is well flushed things should be OK?

What symptoms would I see if metal is harming the engine? Using oil? Oil pressure dropping? Smoking? How many miles does it take to do the damage?

The car only ran for the twenty minute break-in and then two trips around the block while the four lobes were being ground down. Last failure was 800 miles before the one lobe was gone ... One oil change during that time.

This engine could be fine with a new roller cam and a good flush?

Feedback please.