Best Cobra engine?

[CarsByCarl]

I've been considering developing a 429/460 based crate engine specifically for the Cobra market, and I'm looking for some input of what you guys would like to see.

-Aluminum heads or iron?
-429, 460, 514, 521?
-Does idle quality/vacuum play a role for you guys?
-Flat tappet or roller cam?
-Hydrualic or solid tappets?
-Price point?
-Manifold hieght?
-Aluminum water pump or iron?
-Oil pan included? (if so, what type?)

At this point I have a 429 package that I think would be a good place to start. Please let me know if this is in the right direction, or what changes you would like to see.

-429 CID (435-437 CID with overbore for cleanup)
-Forged pistons
-H beam rods
-Hydraulic flat tappet cam
-Aluminum heads
-Roller rockers
-Single plane intake (Torker II)
-Compatible with unleaded premium
-Projected power of 542 lb/ft @4500rpm and 580hp at 6500rpm
-Projected price of $5300.00


Thanks in advance for any advise you can offer.

[FUNFER2]

I've been considering a cheaper engine to build or buy, than my "FE" next time.
The crate 514 looks good. With yours, the cam is a good question. I was told by the two, of the master FE engine builders that a roller cam on the street is not, the way to go. They said you'll be replacing the lifters ect. after apx. 5k miles on the motor. I still don't understand why ? I built mine using a solid flat tappet. I would like to see alum. heads, big cubes, alum. pump, run on pump gas. Your price, hp & torque numbers sounds great, although.....Id like to see maybe, 600 hp ? For your asking price of $4,500, you can't go wrong with the information & specs provided so far.
Thanks,

[ByronRACE]

-Aluminum heads or iron?

Aluminum; big block guys get enough crap about weight...everyone wants aluminum heads.

-429, 460, 514, 521?

All of the above, and add combos for the 4.3 and 4.5" steel stroke cranks. I think you'll find that penis envy abounds and most folks will want "at least" a 514 since the motorsport crate has gotten so much press. That said, you could probably sell a "427" based 385 and make a lot of pseudo-purists happy. Even though it's the wrong engine (not an FE), having the correct CI is enough for some people. I know it doesn't make sense, but you wouldn't believe how many 385's I've seen with 427 badges on the valve covers. I'd do a small/medium/large approach. 427/9, 514, and 545. Offer forged steel cranks and forged pistons / good rods / 4-bolt mains / block fill, as an option for serious race oriented folks.

-Does idle quality/vacuum play a role for you guys?

Yes and no. Most cobras use vacuum brake boosters; so yes. The early ones were manual, so no. The newest developments are hydraboost...so no.

-Flat tappet or roller cam?

Considering the problems people have had with flat tappet wear and break-in, I'd offer roller as an option.

-Hydrualic or solid tappets?

From what I can tell, it's a rarity to find someone that cares about 6000+ rpm in a big block cobra. Solid would be an option for race oriented folks.

-Price point?

Most cobra guys prefer "right" over "cheap". If you're spending $40,000+ for a roller (sans engine and trans), you don't care much about saving $1000 on the engine.

-Manifold hieght?

Anything taller than a blue thunder dual-quad won't fit most cars unless you go EFI and do something like I did...which is unpopular. My car is considered an abortion to purists. Which brings me to a suggestion. Offer EFI as an option, turn-key.

-Aluminum water pump or iron?

Most people dont' know the difference, or don't care. For those that do, offer it as an option.

-Oil pan included? (if so, what type?)

Depends on car. Some cars can run full sumps, some can only run rear sump.

If you wanted to build just one engine and capture most peoples imagination, and want to do it budget oriented...I think I'd consider a 545 with a cast crank and reasonable h-beam rods, hypers, and hydraulic flat cam. That said, offer a deluxe version with forged crank, forged pistons, and hydraulic roller cam and I think you'll find most cobra guys will spring for the better parts. 545 stops all the arguments about which displacement is better. Compare dyno graphs.

[CarsByCarl]

Originally Posted by ByronRACE

-Most cobra guys prefer "right" over "cheap". If you're spending $40,000+ for a roller (sans engine and trans), you don't care much about saving $1000 on the engine.

If you wanted to build just one engine and capture most peoples imagination, and want to do it budget oriented...I think I'd consider a 545 with a cast crank and reasonable h-beam rods, hypers, and hydraulic flat cam. That said, offer a deluxe version with forged crank, forged pistons, and hydraulic roller cam and I think you'll find most cobra guys will spring for the better parts. 545 stops all the arguments about which displacement is better. Compare dyno graphs.

I think you make some very good points here. The 545 with a hyd roller would be a nice engine. Just off the top of my head, I think my pricepoint would have to be around $6K. Still more cost effective than the FMS crate, but more cubes and more durable.

My logic with the 429 was based on Ford's soon to be released 514FT "cobra" crate engine. It's thier basic 514 shortblock with SCJ heads, a Torker II intake, and the same flat tappet cam they use in the 460 crate engine. I hear that they haven't finished testing it yet, so there aren't any power figures that have been published but I estimate 575lb/ft and and 505hp. A little more torque and less hp than the 460 crate engine, with a lower rpm band. Pricing is supposed to be around $7000.00 I'm not really seeing Ford's logic with that new engine.

[mdross1]

Always like to check in with big inch like minded Cobra owners.My aluminum head,hyd flat tappet,1000 cfm dbl pump 560hp ,460 inch has been a treat.Have a spare 460 sitting in the shop and always thought one day would throw in a big arm and get it out to at least 521" BUT! would it be enough? Honestly enjoy the car 99% of the time.What gets me thinking about the 500+inch arena is the rollons and just hammering it out on the highway where big inch really shines.Don't want so much torque that have to be wary of it in that situation.
So,I need to lean on you enthusiasts that have these big guns powering your Cobra's.
Not concerned about having too much cornering,just want to be able to hammer it at speed and stay somewhat hooked to the asphalt.Anybody willing to chime in and give me examples?
My car has been scaled and the diff also at 4 degrees positive,it hooks good off the line and stays very straight.
Mike Ross

[xlr8tr]

My thought would be if you are going "non-purist", (i.e. non-FE) go all the way with big inches, 521+. I'm just getting used to mine (only been driving it a week) and its a blast. Rev lmiter is 6000 and it seems pretty happy at that number! Idle is about 1,000 and rough, but I like it.

I would like to put this pig on a diet, so an aluminum block option would be good.

My 460 is all iron, and I'm sure there's 200 lbs+ to lose off the front end with aluminum heads and aluminum block, right?

[cobrashoch]

545? - Done this. Some notes in my experience:
Crank - w/a 4.5 stroke the longest rod I could use was a 6.7 rod w/flattop pistons and rings at the top of the piston, w/a D1VE block. However it's done all the time but you have to scratch your head and take lots of measurements dependent on the various block castings you use. A 4.3 stroke gives you much more flexibility. (read-less $$$$$$$) BTW - I'm in the school that the less you have to bore a block, the better.
Rods - Stock rods are good to about 450hp. Changing the big end bolt takes them to about 480hp., and this is only good for short bursts such as occasional drag racing, not any kind of endurance stuff. Next step up in cost is the Chevy rod/stroked combo stuff. Stock replacement Ford aftermarket rods cost slightly more than Chevy rods. My vote so far, 4.3 stroke Chevy cast crank w/aftermarket rods.
Cam- For about two million reasons a hydro roller of .6 to .63 lift is where you want to be on the street, no more lift! If you need more performance just add some duration on the cam and open up the overlap a couple of degrees. Lifts over .65 require constant maintenance and rocker/lifter rebuilds. Speaking of which, does Comp Cams still make steel rockers? I'd look there on your quest.
Heads - Hard to look past P51's for anything around .30 over bore blocks, given the costs. Some cost less, some more, but on the high side the gains are only marginal, and on the low side you can get much less for only marginally cheaper heads. so P51's get my vote.
Intakes - I wouldn't put a intake manifold on your engine, instead I would offer a port match at about 1-1/2 the cost of the manifold per your customers request. I like the Weiand Stealth for carbs, no more than 850cfms. For Dominator street carbs I like the Blue Thunder 180 degree intake.
My vote, hope ya make a million dollars, good luck.

xir8tr - Most 385 aluminum alloy blocks weigh in at roughly the same weight as a D1VE/D0VE blocks. This is due to the extra "racing" ribbing those blocks get to give them strength for drag racing. If it's a lightweight 385 block you want, you might look at a late truck long bore block, or a Dominator "gas poured" sportsman block. I took 35lbs. out of my D1VE block using a judicious grinder together with various machining steps. My long block weighed 545lbs. sans pulleys and supercharger. The Blue Thunder heads I used were only marginally lighter than the stock heads, and I had a steel main girdle. So I wouldn't put much "weight" in all the talk I hear in these parts about lighter engines. Most FE428 stock Iron engines weigh in at roughly 500lbs,
(with aluminum heads) about 100lbs. less if you use a Shelby or Pond Block. BTW - Taking weight off the front of the car can be done by taking weight out of the car itself, not just the engine. Just a friendly reminder of the obvious.
cobrashoch

[mdross1]

I have been thinking about a roller cam for my 460 for quite a while,just have had too many projects going lately to consider tearing into the motor.Next year will be the year provided our Government hasn't robbed us blind by then.Been hearing some scary stuff.
Just picked up a V8 bike with a huge roller .700 lift Comp cam 406",560 dynoed hp.This thing revs instantly and sounds incredible.Our Cobra sits in the shop next to the bike which helps in keeping the juices flowing.Also thought about a mechanical roller just for the sound they make.If it were not for the hassle to pull the valve covers for tappet adjustment would do it.
Any of you running a big roller in your 385 blocks? Would love to hear from you.

[FUNFER2]

I had one in my 428 and loved it. I eased the pressure off the springs & valves for winter storage then lashed the valves in spring and checked them mid-summer. Most the time the lash was fine, but always checked. The same will apply with my 527 side oiler. It's really not a pain in the ass as a lot of people think. The only times I would check them again is after racing it, either the drag strip or road racing.

[Xack]

What about a 429 Boss-9 Kasse heads engine set up in a crate? I've got a 429 engine on a stand that needs sleeves and all the work. I've been thinking of working on this to replace my 460. But I'm not sure it'll fit in under the hood...

[blykins]

I posted a couple of Boss 9 specials on our webpage and in the advertisers section. If you have a complete engine that can be used for lots of parts, it would make it less expensive. It will fit under the hood, there have been several posts about that.

The larger engines will make 750-800 hp depending on the displacement, but you could realistically expect 650-675 depending on the camshaft with 429 cubic inches.

[CarsByCarl]

Wow, this thread is sure a blast from the past. Looks like I started it way back in 2006.

Long story short, I did put together a crate engine specifically designed for the Cobra cars. Ended up calling it the Snakebite package.

Snakebite Crate Engine

Designed specifically for AC Cobra style kit cars, this engine is a true street performer with a broad power band and reliable cross country drivability.

-Choice of 501+/521+/545+ rotating assemblies
-Forged Crank, aircraft certified 4340, internal balance
-Forged 4340 rods with ARP bolts
-Diamond Racing Forged pistons with custom dish
-Diamond Racing file fit plasma moly rings
-Fully prepped factory block
-Ford Racing SCJ/Kaase cylinder heads
-Edelbrock Torker II intake manifold
-Scorpion Racing aluminum roller rocker arms
-Ford Racing polished valve covers
-Oil pan NOT included (will be supplied based on chassis, price varies)
-3/8" custom pushrods
-Lunati solid roller camshaft (custom endurance/street grind)
-Lunati solid roller lifters w/edm oiling
-High flow Dynamics oil pump
-Power potential 650+ HP at 5800 rpm, 675+ lb/ft at 4500 rpm (dyno tested and proven)
-Premium unleaded pump gas compatible
-Custom options available, just ask

More info is available at the link below: (bottom of the page)
CarsByCarl

[FUNFER2]

I'm building a 527 Genesis, so I don't need another. Your parts list are the cream of the crop and impressive numbers. I'm curious about the price ?
Oops, I see it's $8,495 after looking on your website. Nice motor & great price.

[CarsByCarl]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

I'm building a 527 Genesis, so I don't need another. Your parts list are the cream of the crop and impressive numbers. I'm curious about the price ?

$8495.00 is the price.

This is a video of it on the dyno: Videos Posted by CarsByCarl: Snakebite crate engine [HQ] | Facebook

This link will take you to a list of all my engines: CarsByCarl

[FUNFER2]

Looks like we posted a few seconds apart.

Have you tested this motor with various other intake manifolds ? We do have to keep the profile down low, because of engine hoods on Cobras.

[CarsByCarl]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

Looks like we posted a few seconds apart.

Have you tested this motor with various other intake manifolds ? We do have to keep the profile down low, because of engine hoods on Cobras.

Haven't tested any other intakes on this particular combination, but the results of a Victor or a Stealth, etc. are fairly predictable. The Torker II is really pretty darn good manifold considering it's lack of hieght.

I'm working on bringing a new intake to market which will be unlike anything currently available, so keep your eyes peeled.

[FUNFER2]

I swapped out the RPM manifold after a rebuild and used the Victor on my 428 FE. I had to plane down the carb surface .250 to clear my hood with the shallow oval air cleaner, but it did not seem to loose anything. Make sure to keep us up to date with your new manifold.

[cobrashoch]

I second that update on your new manifold, keep us posted. Your flexible engine combo's
are a little more high end than I thought about in my previous post, but your prices are certainly very good. I agree w/your experience regarding the torker 2, got one in my garage, and have been toying with the idea of putin' fuel rails on it.
Glad to hear that you took your original idea and ran with it.
cobrashock

[Tom Wells]

Ron,

Ya mean like this:

LOL

Been running this since 2003 or earlier. Seems to work fine.

Tom

[cobrashoch]

Hi Tom, been a while. I check in here from time to time to insult everyone. My ol' carb motor went 8.6's last year an it skared this old hillbilly to death. Haven't, been out this year, buying a new house. I see that your iron is still together.
Later, cobrashock