Roush VS. Ford Racing Engines

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by SPF1061

Cobra Ed -
Take a pill and chill. No need to shout. I can hear you.

I WASN'T SHOUTING DA_NIT!!!!!

[ByronRACE]

I would strongly recommend visiting the 385 series engine forum at www.460ford.com and asking there if there is a seasoned and knowledgeable builder in your area, and work locally.

Why?

Engine shipping is expensive; and considering that if you have ANY problem with ANYTHING, you will need the aid of a local builder anyway...any mail-order company can't help you until you return the engine; which means removal from the vehicle. You are much better served to get a local guy to craft you something locally; and take responsibility for it locally.

Aside from that, there are guys out there that can far surpass the bang/buck value you're looking at with the other builders you're considering.

Hopefully there is a godo builder right in your area; that would be ideal.

Byron

[niles]

And people wonder why the partcipation in CC is way down!
gn

[TRIG]

Cashburn is likely more knowledgeable than I am about this but I believe from my talks with Roush that if you have an issue with a Roush engine, any authorized Roush repair facility can do the work under warranty. I called Roush regarding routine maintenance to make sure that I didn't void my warranty by doing my own oil changes and so forth and at that time I asked if any warranty issues come up how I would go about getting it taking care of and they told me to go to either McMichaels Motorsports, my local SPF dealer or Chuck Keene's who does the installs for McMichaels.

Trig2275

[RallySnake]

Gburg,

You can probably get a much better deal with a local builder than either of these motors. The BIG question is, where ARE you? Knowing that, we can possibly help you find someone good near you.

I am currently working with an engine builder on my new engine. Since I have been buying all the parts on eBay, it's taken three months to get the block together. The total price per horsepower will be OUTSTANDING, though!

Paul

[Fred Z]

Just had to say it.................how about CHP? they make a nice one.......all forged..........nice mass flow, should you choose.....and youget what you pay for.........like the others.....but I had to chime in..........now OUT!
FRED.Z

[turnpike boy]

Gburg, the overwhelming majority of engines offered out there will ALL require parts to complete for installation. It might be alternators, or starters, or flywheels, or a clutch, or......you get the point. Virtually no one offers a standard packaged engine, equipped with every part you need to just drop it in.

That is not to say Roush or Kraft or Coast will not provide a soup-to-nuts package; far from it. They will most certainly set you up with everything you need, and will provide quality stuff to boot. Just understand and be prepared to spend a bunch more than the prices you see in their ads.

Finally. With regard to all who just love to dump on Ford crate motors; yes, you do get what you pay for, but what you get is damn good stuff. Their stuff works, and works well, for a lot less money than the customs. Kindly do not drone on about how your custom makes 600 hp and the crates don't - we all know that. And maybe - just maybe - that's why the crates get bought in the first place.

[CobraEd]

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...tegoryId=28637

[Gburg]

Originally Posted by RallySnake

Gburg,

You can probably get a much better deal with a local builder than either of these motors. The BIG question is, where ARE you? Knowing that, we can possibly help you find someone good near you.

I am currently working with an engine builder on my new engine. Since I have been buying all the parts on eBay, it's taken three months to get the block together. The total price per horsepower will be OUTSTANDING, though!

Paul

Three months??? I am in Columbus, Ohio.

Gburg

[ByronRACE]

In the world of building a cobra, 3 months is timely! LOL

I've been building my car for 4.5 years. No, not full time.

Just remember to have as much fun with the journey as you will have driving the car. Personally, I don't think I ever want the project part of my build to stop. If it does; I'll have the desire to build another hot rod...I enjoy it that much.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Gburg

The Ford Racing motor is not complete, ready to install, then? Alternator, starter, air cleaner and oil pan has to be added before motor install?

Gburg

The Engine Factory, enginefactory.com, offers about as close to a turnkey motor as you can get. They have both a 390FE and 460 motor under the Ford Performance Motors category. Forged pistons. Around $10.5-10.8. I don't know how that compares in price to Ford, but it is significantly less than the Roush and also comes with I believe a 2 year warranty. I haven't used any of their motors but have spoken to some who have and all seemed to be very satisfied with their motors. I'm also not sure how they handle warranty issues, nobody I've spoken with that purchased an EF engine had any warranty issues come up. I believe they're located in PA. Worth an inquiry and they will provide you with customer references.

[Excaliber]

I installed a crate motor GM 454 COMPLETE with everything in an SS454 Chev pickup. Carb, starter, etc. It was NOT a 'drop in'. I was surprised how many modifications I had to make, including cutting off 'ears' on the front of the intake manifold for clearance for the accessories. Grinding, drilling, custom fitting, whew, so much for a 'complete engine' being a 'drop in'.

DISCLAIMER: That was a customers truck, I'd rather push a Ford than drive a Chevy.

[SP01715]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Absolutely not. Roush uses all cast stuff and hypes the HP. Ford uses all forged.

I have the build sheet on my Roush, and it uses all forged internals. Fully ported aluminum AFR heads, Dart block, Hydraulic roller cam etc... I have been into high dollar performance boats for the past 15 years or so and have dealt with motors costing in the 100k range, and the Roush motor is a deal IMO. They would not give a 2 year 24k warranty on a 562 hp motor if it was not built right. My.02

[Poolw]

Roush vs. Ford racing is a no bainer. Roush wins hands down. I would like to hear a comparision between Roush and Keith Craft. I think is KC may be better than Roush. If they are equal on materials then KC wins on customer service from stories I read.

[Gburg]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

The Engine Factory, enginefactory.com, offers about as close to a turnkey motor as you can get. They have both a 390FE and 460 motor under the Ford Performance Motors category. Forged pistons. Around $10.5-10.8. I don't know how that compares in price to Ford, but it is significantly less than the Roush and also comes with I believe a 2 year warranty. I haven't used any of their motors but have spoken to some who have and all seemed to be very satisfied with their motors. I'm also not sure how they handle warranty issues, nobody I've spoken with that purchased an EF engine had any warranty issues come up. I believe they're located in PA. Worth an inquiry and they will provide you with customer references.

Thanks for the good tip. Just checked-out their website. I will save as a favorite link.

Gburg

[ByronRACE]

Don't forget about John Kaase...

http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/

But I still say you should find a local builder. I have about 8-9K in my engine, complete, including fuel injection and supercharger. Yes, I built a lot of it myself...the bolt-together part. All the engine machine work, cnc stuff and such was hired-out. If money is any concern for you at all, I think you can do this far more affordably locally...and develop a support network while you're at it. If I built my engine again and just went single carburetor and naturally aspirated, I could build a 545" NA stroker for under 6K complete I bet.

If money is no concern, then I'd have Kaase build an all aluminum monster, break it in on the dyno, and all...why not.

[flipper35]

I would take cast pistons over hypers, but forged over hypers isn't much more cash in the whole scheme of things and by far the best choice.

[ByronRACE]

Hypereutectic pistons work FANTASTIC in perfectly tuned engines that never (ever) detonate. They grow/shrink less, wear like iron, are plenty strong, etc.

That said, racing engines and/or high performance engines that are played with, tweeked, run on pump gas, beat on, etc...have no business running hypereutectics. They are a brittle piston that shatters if the engine pings (detonates). Seen MANY dead hypereutectics on engines that were allowed to rattle. Even a little rat-tat-tat once in a while will kill them.

I would personally choose hyper over cast any day of the week, and hyper over forged for a ho-hum non-agressive engine that I intend to put 200K miles on in a street car. But, for a race/play toy, no way...go Forged. The first time the wife puts 87 in it, or you get a bad tank of gas, it'll rattle...and with Forged, you have a second chance.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Gburg

Which would you choose a Roush or Ford Racing powerplant? I have seen Roush crate engines priced twice the going price of Ford Racing crate engines, which offer the same H.P. output. I question paying the Roush price when Ford Racing has the same product for half the $$$$. Most of the Cobra MKIII replicas that I have seen have Ford Racing engines.

Not all HP figures (dyno's) are equal. You need to check with some engine builders/installers that have used these engines, dyno'd them side by side to compare.

For example, I just had my engine, chassis dyno tuned, stock stroke iron FE 427, 10.5:1, factory aluminum dual plane intake, original 780 vacuum carb. Engine pulled 454 rwhp, and 488 rwtq. My engine builder (tuner in my case) has installed numerous roush 427's, come with a dyno sheet of 560+ hp, but once installed in the car, on the chassis dyno, they consistantly pull 410-420 rwhp, and 410 rwtq. He also has built 484 aluminum FE's, with shelby heads and intake (basically an edelbrock performer RPM), and they pull about 435-445 rwhp.

[Mr427]

FORGED!
Great discussion! Jack Roush has been one of the top FORD engine builders in America for over 30 years. Along with Wayne Gapp he ensured more FORD wins in Pro Stock (specifically categorized for Bill "Grumpy" Jenkins" and small block Chevrolets after 1971) than any single competitor at that time. After he quit racing himself, he became one of the architechts for a lot of high performance parts that Ford marketeted through its revived Muscle Parts Program. Yeah, I know, they called it SVO, the Motorsports, the SVT and now Ford Racing.

I have very little to add to the tech talk above, but I am appalled at Ford and Roush to even thinking about building ANY engine that they KNEW was going to be used for high performance applications WITHOUT forged pistons.

The term "hypereutectic" is a euphemism coined by TRW in the nineties. It means CAST CAST CAST. Nothing else. No engine, irrespective of size should have cast pistons if it is EVER supposed to see the south side of 5500 RPMS.

In its high performance supplementary publications, Ford talked about the "High Rev World of 5000 and Beyond". This sentence has meaning, because they all knew by then that an engine that passes this mark under stress is subjected to all new barriers of thermodynamics, fuel instability, ignition timing issues and a whole myriad of obstacles. It is like flying through the sound barrier. The RPM range from 5000 and up REQUIRES a different set of mechanicals, BEGINNING with forged pistons. The rest is a little more subjective, but there is one exception to all of this:

Ford´s early 429 engine is a case in study of how to do things right. Everything about this engine is amazingly correct. I am talking about the 1968 - 1971 N-code engine that was used to power hundreds of thousands of Ford vehicles. This engine has a nominal CR of 11,7 :1 and gets along with cast pistons. This engine in its stock form with headers and a 780CFM Holley would border on 400hp and run cars like the 1970 Torino and Cyclones into the mid 13-sec. time zone. It could take more ignition advance than ANY comparable engine of its time and it did all this, reaching high compression and power with flat top pistons.

Why am I going on about this? Because this engine is the exception to what I just said about forged pistons. :-)