460 initial timing

Garage10 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-11-2007, 10:26 PM

Hey evrybody
My 460 (550HP)crate is hard starting and was wondering if anyone knows what the minimum initial timing is for this motor ? I have a MSD pro billet distributor set to 17 deg initial and 21 deg centrifugal for a total of 38 deg. I was thinking of playing around with initial to see how it would start at 7 deg. My thinking is if this helps it start better then I would buy a 10 deg start retarder. Any thoughts or ideas greatly appreciated ?

Thanks
Brent

Tom Wells · #2 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 06:48 AM

Brent,

I intended to give you a fast, pat answer. I did a search at 460ford.com and got many hits: http://www.460ford.com/search.php?mode=results

So the only thing I can suggest is that you do the same search for "initial timing" and then if you wish, ask the question over there.

I have the 521 and use 12 degrees initial and 36 total with the MSD setup. Your engine may need similar (or not!).

What did the paperwork suggest that came with your engine from Ford?

Tom

JCoop · #3 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage10

Hey evrybody
My 460 (550HP)crate is hard starting and was wondering if anyone knows what the minimum initial timing is for this motor ? I have a MSD pro billet distributor set to 17 deg initial and 21 deg centrifugal for a total of 38 deg. I was thinking of playing around with initial to see how it would start at 7 deg. My thinking is if this helps it start better then I would buy a 10 deg start retarder. Any thoughts or ideas greatly appreciated ?

Thanks
Brent

Brent, my 460 is timed 12 initial, no vacuum. Plenty of kick and very linear up to 6500. Starts right up with a squirt or two from the accelerator pump before turning over. Try it...

Ray

wizard · #4 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 07:58 AM

A friend of mine from the "dark side" used this technique to determine my initial which is 16 deg. He slowly advanced the distributer and watched for throttle response. hesitation etc. It seems the more advanced he went, the better it got. Of course, he eventually reached the "hard to start" point and then backed up until he had the best of both worlds. Now knowing where initial was, it was simply subtract 16 from 36 and that gave the number for the limiting cam in the distributor. Set the spring to bring the 20 deg in by 2600 rpm and I haven't looked back.

Hope this helps.

xlr8or · #5 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 08:48 AM

My 460 ran with 14 initial and 21 advance in the distributor.

Tim Brewer · #6 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 11:40 AM

The higher the initial, the harder the start.....

scootter · #7 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 11:57 AM

I have the 514 with the 6AL MSD. Mine starts fine cold and most of the time, but if it is hot and shut down for only a minute or two for gas it can be hard to start. I have a high torque Power Master starter.
I use to run the initial at 15 degs, until I installed th BG carb from Four Seconds flat. He had me bump the initial up to 20 degs with a 12 deg bushing to get around 32 total. My timing starts to advance just above idle (1050) and is all in around 2400rpm or so. This set up has worked great on mine. No hesitation or stumble at all. It did take some tweaking with the carb.

Scott

Garage10 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-12-2007, 08:16 PM

Thanks Guy's
Tom, I tried that search at 460.com and didn't really come up with anything. I think I will install the 25 deg bushing and set my initial to 12 deg maybe put in a silver and blue spring to get total advance on by 3300 rpm.
jcoop, I have tried starting with and without giving squirt or two. Still cranks quite a while. Seems to be flooding maybe as I frequently have to hold throttle to floor till it starts, then it smokes like crazy. I have pulled carb, cleaned , reset floats and afm, installed holley fuel pres reg and gauge set to 5.5psi and still starts like crap.
Thanks
Brent

Tom Wells · #9 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 06:50 AM

Brent,

Here's a much more specific set of threads from 460ford.com:

http://www.460ford.com/viewtopic.php...0+crate+timing

Take a look also at the two links Danny put into the last message.

BTW, from your latest post, it seems there might be a carb problem???? Too???

Tom

69boss429 · #10 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garage10

Thanks Guy's
Tom, I tried that search at 460.com and didn't really come up with anything. I think I will install the 25 deg bushing and set my initial to 12 deg maybe put in a silver and blue spring to get total advance on by 3300 rpm.
jcoop, I have tried starting with and without giving squirt or two. Still cranks quite a while. Seems to be flooding maybe as I frequently have to hold throttle to floor till it starts, then it smokes like crazy. I have pulled carb, cleaned , reset floats and afm, installed holley fuel pres reg and gauge set to 5.5psi and still starts like crap.
Thanks
Brent

I run my MSD locked out and set the timing to 34 degrees.The installation of the retarder box cured my cranking problem.I tried 20 degrees retard first and it didn't like it so I set it at 10,works great.
I'm not saying you should lock out yours,but I think your advance should be in no later than around 1600 to 1800

Garage10 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 10:35 PM

Hi Tom
Yes I do believe I have a carb problem too. Just havn't quite figured it out yet. I am also getting terrible run on and double barrel backfire at shutdown. I am running 5 hg at idle and my edelbrock 750 (1411) is running a 5hg stepup spring. I am going to try a 4 or 3 hg spring and see if that helps.
69boss429
When you run locked out at 34 deg and your retarder is set for 10 deg does that mean you are starting your engine with 24 deg advance ? I thought the greater theadvance the harder it was to turn over ? I don't know much about locking out dist. Does that mean that as soon as engine is running your timing instantly goes to 34 deg advance ? Is it ok to run that much advance at low rpm's ?

Thanks
Brent

69boss429 · #12 (**permalink**) 10-14-2007, 05:48 AM

Brent,
Yes,it's starting with 24 degrees,above 800 rpm the retarder cuts out an gives full advance.
The hemi headed Boss seems to like this arrangement,and MSD has a diode to install before the voltage regulator to help with the run on.
If you are getting backfires you might be blowing out your power valve.

Tom Kirkham · #13 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 12:36 AM

Look at page 4

http://www.gnetworks.com/v4files/bar...arburetion.pdf

Garage10 · #14 (**permalink**) 10-15-2007, 09:49 PM

Thanks Tom
Is this just for info or are you recomending demon carbs over my edelbrock ?
Its been a very long time since I played with cars and I have forgotten just about everything. So I am doing lots of reading and talking to people to try and work through my problems. But, the problems really starting to irritate me and my neighbors probably don't like the double barrel shotgun salute at shutdown either.
Brent

scootter · #15 (**permalink**) 10-16-2007, 11:09 AM

Brent,
I feel your pain. I have been through the learning curve in the past few years. Sometimes I think you can get to much info, and get confused. I talked alot with two guys at Ford Racing. Ray and I forget the other one.
When I bought my BG( which is an easy carb to tune) carb from Four Seconds Flat, he supplied one of the best carb tune guides I've seen. I could also call him for advice when needed. I also installed bungs in my side pipes and bought an Innovate A/F meter. Very helpful.
My engine has had run on since day one no matter what changes I have made. When I shut the engine down, I have the trans in second gear and let it out a bit to kill the engine right away.
Scott

Garage10 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-17-2007, 08:27 PM

Hey scooter
What ignition system are you running ? If it's MSD supposedly you are supposed to install a diode to stop run on. I havn't tried this yet myself to see if it helps my problem.

Brent

scootter · #17 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 11:46 AM

Hey Brent,
I have the MSD 6AL system. I tired that, and it didn't work either. I know some guys have a device that completely close's the throttle plates when the ignition is turned off. That is supposed to do the trick.
After I have done all these last mods ( timming, carb, ect) it was supposed to cure it, but I have never tried since I am use to letting out the clutch. The guy that helped me with the carb and timming explained why it happens, but I don't understand it all that well.
Scott

Randy Rosenberg · #18 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 12:09 PM

I use a throttle solenoid to set the idle speed and to close the plates when I turn off the ignition. Run on problem solved.

Here's a pic:

Garage10 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 03:16 PM

Scooter
After all that and it still runs on. It sounds like this is a 460 problem as I know another guy with the same problem too. Has to let out clutch to shut her down. I can't believe that there isn't more real knowledgable people out there reading this that have had the same problem and cured it that could share their cure with us.

Brent

Tom Wells · #20 (**permalink**) 10-18-2007, 03:45 PM

Brent,

At the risk of seeming to use a sledgehammer to get your attention, Tom Kirkham gave you some pretty specific reading above which you haven't addressed here - did you check it?

Just in case, here's the reference:

Quote:

Run-on (too lean or too rich at idle):
Lower idle speed and/or richen the mixture by
turning the idle-mixture screws outward by a quarter
of a turn. Double-check ignition timing.

This might work.

Run-on is a carburetor and/or ignition problem, not a 460 problem

Let us know,

Tom