429 is pissing me off!! I have no idea anymore as to the problem! Please Help!!

[cdnus]

X2 what Tom said.
The same thing happens to me. The rpm gets to the chip quicker than the tach gets to actual RPM.

Craig

[bran3b]

Tom makes sense, I have done the same thing.

[lovehamr]

Or just pull the chip and try it..........while being carefull that is. Remember that w/o the chip it has no RL.

Steve

[Tom Wells]

Ruh ro...

pull the chip

Recipe for disaster! If the engine hits the redline that fast, which it can do in first gear, pulling the chip could lead to significant destruction

As much as it sounds logical I wouldn't do it.

Unless you could ease up to 6000 rpm slowly. You could do that without pulling the chip.

Tom

[Excaliber]

No problem pulling the chip, I bet his valves will float before a rod lets go.

Here, hold my beer and watch this...

OK, light 'em up!

[Great Asp]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Or just pull the chip and try it..........
Steve

HE HE HE HE....

"The good news is I figured out the rev limiter was causing the problem, the bad news...."

OP, I hope you get the problem fixed, these issues will drive you nuts.

E

[Tim Brewer]

Try putting a 7K limiter in your box and see how that works. Also, too hard a compound tire with too much presure is gonna spin like crazy and wind out your engine real quick.

[ebustin]

All above is true. One more thing check the tang on the dist. rotor

[commercialcobb]

Tang on the distributor?

Oh and when this car starts bogging at 4000k I have held it there a couple times for a few seconds and the rpm's if I remember correctly don't ever indicate the 6000RL while holding at that bog.. Continues to show 4000k the shole time.. Actually, let me go melt some rubber and I'll let you know. I does sound logical that the engine RPM's are hitting the box before the gauge and thats why were seeing it at 4000k and not 6000K.. I let you know what happens..

Thanks, Ryan.

[oleyellar]

What you are experiencing is the first critical harmonic frequency of the valve train, or what we always called valve spring float. I went through the same issues, mine quit a 5200 RPM. It felt just like the MSD rev limiter chip.
Here is a part of a technical paper I found from Crane cams.

I found this in Crane Cams info.
"A more important fact about spring rates, however, is the fact that the spring rate is related to the harmonic characteristics of the spring. As a general rule, the stiffer the spring (the higher the spring rate), the higher in the RPM range that the first critical spring harmonics occur! What this means is that a low rate spring (300-330 lbs./in.) will probably encounter a critical harmonic relatively low in the RPM range (4800-5600 RPM depending upon valve train component weight and lobe profile). If a critical harmonic occurs with your valve springs, the valve motions will momentarily be out of control. This critical harmonic will often be misdiagnosed as an ignition problem or fuel problem.."

I had tried everything that has been suggested in the previous posts and nothing helped. I changed valve springs, increased seat pressure slightly and added about 25Lbs additional pressure at full lift and the problem went away.

Google search for valve spring critical harmonic reasonance frequencies and you will get some interesting information. Check out the U tube videos of the " Spin Tron" valve spring tester and you will see what is causing your problem.
Good luck.

[kitcarbp]

Geez I have read the responses and also first thought the rev limiter is kicking in before tach, but if it was mine I would try to get a look at the basics, the primary and secondary ignition wave forms first to see if you can get a clue there, otherwise its a guess and you'll blame the wrong part. Is tach working right, are u sure its 4K rpm ? I would also ensure alt output is OK at these rpms and no AC leakage from a bad diode pack that may affect MSD box or the trigger circuit. Not sure how much over-voltage MSD can tolerate but is your charging voltage about 2V above baseline battery V (like 14-14.8V range)? My 1G old school alt runs 14.2V at idle and 14.6V above 2000 rpm as an example.

I was going to say this is an engine load dependent issue but if the 4K rpm ceiling does not happen when tires have bite, I am not sure, because when tires "are-a-smoking" the engine load is going down a bit if revs are staying at 4K. In any case I would double check your fuel pressure is not dropping off due to fuel sloshing away from your tank pick-up during your burn-outs. Can you get a long fuel pressure test gauge and test hose (plumbed at carb) and duct tape it to the w/s during a burn-out to confirm you're not dropping fuel pressure, perhaps you've done this already.

The installation instructions on these MSD and other boxes state the trigger wires coming from the distributor "mag pick-up" need to be twisted to avoid electro-mag interference, my MSD harness I purchased for the DURAspark dist has exactly that, the wires are braided along entire length.

There are three ways to trigger the box, I can't tell from your engine photos but are you using points or mag pick-up to trigger the MSD box?

FROM MSD BOX instructions:
There are three circuits that can be used to trigger the MSD Ignition;
a Points circuit (the White wire), a Magnetic Pickup circuit (the Green
and Violet wires), and a Hall-effect wire (White/Blue). Only one circuit
will be used at a time.
Routing Wires: The MSD wires should be routed away from direct heat sources such as exhaust
manifolds and headers and any sharp edges. The trigger wires should be routed separate from the
other wires and spark plug wires. It is best if they are routed along a ground plane such as the block
or firewall which creates an electrical shield. The magnetic pickup wires should always be routed
separately and should be twisted together to help reduce extraneous interference.
I am Not sure how yours is set-up.

The valve float@ 4K rpm would indicate your valvetrain was designed wrong with the wrong pieces assembled, even an OEM 429/460 won't float valves until well past 5K rpm, not as low as 4K rpm. AND it would float all the time past 4K not just WOT and 1st gear.
I would get back to basics of fuel pressure/MSD box voltage/current IN, MSD box trigger circuit, PRI/SEC ignition waveforms. Let us know what you find.

[oleyellar]

Have you resolved the issue? Interested in the solution to your engine problem.
Let us know if you made it happy and how.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Tom Wells

Recipe for disaster! If the engine hits the redline that fast, which it can do in first gear, pulling the chip could lead to significant destruction

What the heck are you talking about Tom? Unless this is a total POS 385 series engine (and aside from the quadrajunk it sounds pretty nice) 6k or even 7k rpm isn't going to detonate the thing. If this were true how the heck did we get along all those years without rev limiters? I still remember the first time I had the $$ to put into an MSD 7al on my last Boss 302 back in the 90s. Yeah I didn't watch the tach bounce off of 8k rpm anymore but I never fatally over-reved it before then either and those puppies wrap up so much faster than a BB it's not even funny. And you other guys that jumped on that bandwagon; you mean to tell me that you guys have never driven a hi performance car without a rev-limiter? I was under the impression that most of us were on the "elder" side and would have had this experience already. I know Tom is on the eld side.............wink, wink.

Steve (not as eld as Tom)

[Tom Wells]

Hey Steve,

In New Orleans we have a saying that would appear to cover this situation:

"Yeah, you rite!"

Tom

[kitcarbp]

Found this on the MSD tech info section of the web-site that talks about EMI.

8. How do I fix:
• A high rpm miss when the engine is under load?
• An rpm limiter that seems to activate at the wrong rpm?
• Erratic operation of electronic devices/ECUs?
• A tachometer needle that seems to “bounce”?
All of the above can be caused by Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI) generated by the ignition system. Specifically through the coil and spark plug wires. The ignition system is a miniature power station and the spark plug wires are its transmission lines. The wires (in particular, “solid core” wires) can broadcast EMI that seeps into electronics and causes erratic behavior.

To combat EMI you need to run a set of helically wound spark plug wires such as MSD’s Heli-Core or 8.5mm Super Conductor Wires. Having the conductor wound around a special center core produces a “choke” that holds EMI inside the wire. Solid core wires on the other hand, have no suppression capabilities and should not be used with an MSD Ignition. MSD’s Super Conductor Wires have extremely low resistance (less than 50 ohms per foot), yet are designed to suppress EMI like a high resistance wire.

[1 Cobra Cowboy]

I had a similar problem with my 392 running to only 4000rpm. I looked to this web site for help and got it. My MSD 6AL is installed inside the engine compartment, passenger side, just forward of the radiator fill tank. The root cause of the engine missing, at 4000 rpm, was due to the tachometer wire being run, along with all the other wires, through the firewalls single opening supplied for that purpose.

One of the guys (just like kitcarbb) explained about the electrical interferance and how it can and does interfere with the tachometer working correctly. So, I followed the guys advice and ran the tachometer wire away from all the other wires and had it enter into the drivers side through the steering column and up into the tach. Problem was immediately solved.

I have had clutch problems too and by reading and applying the information provided from the members of this site, I was able to resolve that problem as well. If its not already fixed from all the good info provided then give this a try.

Good luck from Austin Tx. and to all you cobra club members.

1 Cobra Cowboy

[oleyellar]

Will we ever know the cause of your pissed off 429 problems?
Is it happy now? Please be kind enough to let us know if any of the solutions offered up here were of any help to you. Lots of folks tried to help, but it would be nice to know if your problem has gone away.

[Barry_R]

I vote for fuel delivery. The Q-Jet only holds about a teaspoon of gas. If he runs it out spinning first the pump does not have eough volume to refill in time - time is the culprit.

[Jerry Clayton]

Q=jet carb isn't compatible with the ford---is it an autolite???
Also on the q-jet, the inlet filter could be blocking fuel flow enough that it runs as he described