Alternator repair

[RICK LAKE]

Tony Radford Couple of questions and a couple of answers
How many wire Alt are you running to regulator in housing??
Who's pulleys are you running and is the crank undersized?
What is the ampage of the Alt?
Size of battery, CCA rating??
If your fans are running at idle, this is the reason for the 11.5 voltage check. Your alt is not charging the system from idle because of alt speed and possible small output.
Tony said here's what I have gone through. I have added curcuits to my car that started with a 70 amp system. I have ther under sie march pulleys. It doesn't spin the Alt fast enought at idle to charge system. Ouput is 35-38 amps at idle. I have 3 fans, fuel pump, Msd ignition system, high voltage coil and ECU. At race speed the Alt is ok but not charging enough to the battery. Forget at Idle the - reading on the amp meter. The battery is being drained. I ran a 880cca and it would kill it over a 3 day event. Had to charge battery at night.
Fix to problem, Have to start with the ampage gauge in the dash. Spikes in ampage can be in the 120 amp range depending on what load comes on like 3 coolant fans, starter, or secondary systems. The pastic that insolates the 2 posts on the back of the dash could melt and burn the WHOLE system depending on how this gauge is installed in the the car and if it's the MAIN power feed. 10-12 gauge wire, IMO is not enought for supplying all the ampage at times. Replacement of the amp gauge with a voltage gauge to start. Connect the 2 main feeds togeather and add a small power feed to the voltage gauge and a ground. This will give you an correct reading of the charging system. You are looking for 13.7-14.2 volts for good charging of system. I am using the orginial wiring system from ERA. I added a 125amp maxi fuse in the charging cable from the ALT ouput terminal. #4 gauge wire to battery post on starter soleniod. The Alt regulator from the old system is external with 4 wires. PAperformance sell a kit for cobra with an 100 amp alt, kit for the external regulator to swap over to enternal one. A 1 wire mode is needed for the new system. The wire is a wakeup for ther charging system. I start my car and the volt meter goes to 14.2 volts and charges both the battery and handles the loads of the car without any problem. Battery stay fully charged. Life time warrantty on the kit. You can run under size pulleys and have a good charging system. Good luck with your car. Rick L.

[Tony Radford]

When I initially start her up, the needle moves well into charge territory and seems to be working for a minute or so and then it drops back to zero. Normally, it stays a little in positive territory of the gauge just about all the time. It has been for years. If the car has been sitting up for a while, it will initially move way into charge territory just as you'd expect. None of the connections have been disturbed. This morning I re-dressed all of the engine wiring as it was running through a metal tube for appearance and I couldn't tell what was going on inside (short?) so I pulled them out and replaced the tube with plastic spiral wrap. I saw no issues. Even though is started quickly both times I drove it yesterday (short errands), the battery was dead this morning. I have no idea what pulled it down.

I'm still perplexed over the intermittent activity with the ammeter gauge. For some reason, it charges hard for a few seconds and then all of a sudden jumps back to zero. Maybe the battery really is toast. Perhaps I should take it to NTB and have a more thorough test performed. I can't imagine why it would have drained over night with nothing left on. It seems a bit coincidental that I accidentally left my lights on and drained it just over a week ago before all of this started happening combined with the fact that an alternator repair facility said the alternator was working fine.

Damn - I hate gremlins!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tony Radford

Maybe the battery really is toast. Perhaps I should take it to NTB and have a more thorough test performed. I can't imagine why it would have drained over night with nothing left on.

Yes, pull the battery and have it thoroughly tested. If it checks out fine, the next step is to check for a parasitic load that is killing it while it sits in the garage. Your voltmeter is probably capable of measuring milliamperes, or you can pick up an inductive DC amp gauge if you want (see this thread for the one I use: 300 amp X 12 volt Circuit breaker ). If the battery is strong, and there is no parasitic loss, we'll move on to the next step.

[RICK LAKE]

Tony Radford Tony do you have a mini stater on the car?? If yes this only needs about 100 -140 amps to crank over the motor. Your battery could have a bad cell and still have enough power to crank up the motor. If the battery is bad with a bad cell. It will have the charging system running crazy. The voltage regulator in some cases to stop charging the system to prevent added damage to the wiring system. Take the battery to a pepboys or auto zone. If the battery is bad, go to the largest cca that is the same size as what you have now. i am still staying with a charging issue after the battery is replaced. If the power wires are in a steel tube, Cut the wiring harness out of this. I hope the wiring harness is taped inside and will not rub inside the tube. Will wait until battery is tested. Rick L.

[Tony Radford]

Had the battery checked out at NTB and they confirmed it's fine. I've got it back in the car and the trickle charger on. I've got to fly out early tomorrow and won't be able to mess with it until the end of the week. Anyone have an suggestion as to why she fired back up when I cycled power the first time she died? I was cruising down the road around 40 or so when I noticed everything was dead. While I was still moving, I turned the key off and back on again and she fired back up for a few seconds. I'm wondering if the alternator could have checked out good but still be bad. It seems to charge for a few seconds when I first fire her up. I'm not sure how long they ran the alternator at the shop when they tested it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tony Radford

Anyone have a suggestion as to why she fired back up when I cycled power the first time she died?

The only thing I can guess is that the circuitry in the alternator fails when it gets hot. And somehow it passed its tests when it really should have failed them (kind of like Rick L. and me).

[tboneheller]

Did they do a diode test on the alternator or just a load test? Most people at automotive shops have no clue of what they are looking for when it comes to electrical issues. A bad diode will quickly drain a battery but show that the alternator is charging fine.

[Tony Radford]

T, I took it up to Star Electric in Cornelia - a shop that specializes in alternator and starter rebuilding. I chose them in case it needed to be rebuilt. They took it away for a little while and were sure it was fine. They also did an rpm test to see where the charging kicked in. I think it's likely they knew what they were doing.

In the mean time, the problem seems to be getting worse. I charged the battery back up and now the starter relay simply chatters. I can't even get her to turn over. All of the accessories work fine, headlights are bright. Charger indicates the battery is at full charge.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tony Radford

I charged the battery back up and now the starter relay simply chatters. I can't even get her to turn over. All of the accessories work fine, headlights are bright. Charger indicates the battery is at full charge.

And if you put jumper cables from your other car on that apparently fully charged battery and try cranking it does it then crank over or does it continue to click and chatter from the solenoid?

[Tony Radford]

Have to get back to you on that one.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tony Radford

Have to get back to you on that one.

My thinking is that if your fully charged battery will not crank it, but it cranks nicely with jumper cables from your wife's Toyota, then either your battery is faulty or the connections at the battery are faulty. If it cranks nicely when you have the negative battery cable clamped on something on your Cobra other than the negative battery post (like a spot on the head or the like) but it doesn't crank when it's clamped to the negative battery post on your Cobra, then a bad ground connection is the culprit.

[Tony Radford]

Tried the jumper. No change. I moved the ground all around. What causes a starter relay to chatter besides low voltage? It's chattering hard and loud.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Tony Radford

What causes a starter relay to chatter besides low voltage? It's chattering hard and loud.

A regular Ford solenoid like mine below? Yes, they go bad for no reason. But before you replace it, put the car in neutral and then put one jumper cable on one side of the solenoid, the other jumper cable on the other side of the solenoid, and then touch the two cables together to see if it cranks the engine. There will be a spark when you do this, so watch your eyes. Please double check that you're in neutral, too.

[RICK LAKE]

Tony Radford Tony the contacts inside the soleniod are cooked from low voltage and high draw( ampage ) of the starter. Need a new soleniod to start. What kind of of starter are you running? Does it have a soleniod on top of the starter motor? how is this hooked up? The internal starter soleniod could also be cooked for low voltage/high amp draw to crank the motor. Do you have a picture of the soleniod, starter connection and the battery location and cables?? From what you are saying and having checked out the battery and Alt, you have a connection problem with a ground or power cable. There is nothing else. The other thing is get a cheap volt meter and wire it into the pos side of the battery where you can see and road test and watch the voltage numbers, They should be in the 13.7 to 14.2 with the motor running at better than 1,500 rpms. The last thing I can think of is the IGN switch is turning off power to the alt wakeup curcuit and the ALT stops charging. There is a test for this. Need to be sure that there is a voltage reading to the Alt. I don't know how many wires you have going to the Alt. There should be 2 min unless you have a single wire that needs a motor to rev over 2,000 rpms to turn on the Alt. Could be more or less if you have under driven pulleys. You didn't get back to us on this question??? starter soleniod are about $12.00- $15.00 dollars ar pepboys. if you cut the rivet the hold the small steel plate to the back of the starter soleniod you can sse if the plate of 2 terminals are burnt. Old trick is to loosen the 2 main studs and rotate them 180 degrees and retighten. You can clean off the contact plate and reuse the starter soleniod for another 10,000 starts. It works, have do this on a 4X4 trail run. Water proof the plate with RTV and reinstall 4 small rivets. I am starting to think that your Alt needs a curtain min rpm range to charge, anything below that and it just stops charging. New GM trucks have this low charging system after the battery is fully charged with low drains on the system. It drops down to about 12.7 volts. Use to improve MPG's. I think is hurts spark output from coils and makes them run hotter. That's another story. Rick L.

[Tony Radford]

I'm out of ideas. I was able to get the car up on the Kwiklift with the winch so I could get an underside view. All of the connections between the battery and starter look fine. I replaced the line between the starter relay and the solenoid as it had a terminal lug in the middle that bothered me. I looked up under the dash at the ammeter for p0tential connection issues and no problems. Still, nothing but chatter.

Rick, I'm having a problem blaming it on the solenoid due to the way the problem came about. It would have had to have died during the troubleshooting process as you suggest. This all started with a potential charging issue (which I presume I still have) and has coincidentally expanded into a starter/solenoid issue. It just seems coincidental. I know I've had the battery out a couple of times, but I've checked my terminal connections a dozen times. I removed and tested the 60A line fuse. I've maintained a full charge on the batter through all of this. I tried jumping her off my truck again a few minutes ago out of desperation, but no change.

I think my starter is a mini. It has the solenoid on top. I can hear it click when I jump the starter relay but it doesn't even try to turn over. Nothing but a loud chatter (not the wimpy chatter you get with a low battery). It's going to suck getting her on to the trailer for a trip to Southern. But I'm sure Lyle can figure it out.

[RICK LAKE]

Tony Radford Tony we are there. Simple tests.
#1 does the motor crank over both ways one complete turn og the dampener?? This will tell if the motor is locked up.
#2 test is easy, take a plastic pallet and wack the starter motor 4-5 times. You are not trying to break it out of the block just shakeup the contacts and brushes inside of dirty. If the starter engages, you have a bad starter soleniod on the starter motor. if you have the same problem last test,
#3 take the starter out and get battery cables put starter in a lage vice to hold or no the ground and wedge it to stop it from running away sorry a joke. Hook the NEG cable to the case and the POS one to the bottom terminal where the motor is hooked to the soleniod. You will get a good spark on contact but the motor should spin. If motor will not spin, bad starter motor, take it to pepboys or auto zone and see if they have a tester for the motor. if motor spins, retest starter at terminal top and use a bolt and tap the starter terminal and see if the starter motor and the nose gear extends outwould. If no, bad soleniod, if yes could still be bad soleniod on starter. That's the end of the tests. One way or the other you have your answer. If the starter motor has been hit or wacked a couple of times and now works, it's still a bad soleniod or starter brushes worn out or burnt. Depending the the starter you can buy just a soleniod. I just got 14 years out of a tilton mini. The starter gear in mine is worn out and couldn't get one in time for the canceled R&G. Have ordered the parts to fit it. Good luck If the car is on the quick lift should take about 1/2 hour to pull and test. Have any problems call me tonight at 732-254-3536 after 7:00pm to about 10:00pm. I willl walk you though this testing if needed. You can fix this yourself, it's a simple problem, we over think things too much. This is why I get a little dumber everyday. Rick L.

[Tony Radford]

Ok, all fixed. Lyle down at Southern did the work. Bad starter for one - solenoid was fine, but starter was trashed. I guess I killed it during the troubleshooting. The real culprit was the alternator. A shop in south Atlanta checked it out and it checked fine - for a while. It eventually stopped charging. They removed the "Chinese" regulator and installed a "better one". In any event, all is good.