AC Continuation or Kirkham

[london]

Here in the UK, there are number of AC 427 MkIII 'continuation' cars being advertised for sale, usually with minimal mileage, and, according to one website on offer for around £255,000 ($400,000).

Given that these cars are much more expensive than the equivalent Kirkham, is the price premium justified in terms of quality or is it purely a case of rarity, AC badge and investment potential that drives the price differential?

Interestingly, the car in the pictures, COX5012, built in the early 2000s (the dealer's advert suggests it's a rebuilt 1966 car!!) only has 72km on the clock!!

Hofmann's - AC - Cobra 427 MkIII

[4pipes]

Obviously, all Kirkhams are aluminum but continuation cars can be glass or aluminum. There are differences in builds, but both are quality cars.

The price premium is usually justified by Shelby name alone.

[SunDude]

I'm pretty sure that COX5012 was previously owned by Trevor Legate, noted published Cobra author and Club Cobra member. It's an aluminum bodied car built by "AC Cars Ltd." in one of its many iterations (possibly Lubinsky-era, but don't quote me on that).

[LMH]

Does it even have the "Shelby" name associated with it?

Not sure what a Kirkham goes for in the UK but lets say $100,000 (us$). Four times more wouldn't be worth it to me.
Larry

[london]

Yes, these are AC built cars and the same cars are still available from AC Heritage at Brooklands in England as one of the licensed manufacturers of AC cars. Mr Legate will be able to confirm, but I suspect a Kirkham built by Hawk Cars would cost upwards of £100,000 ($160,000) in the UK - but still much cheaper than an AC continuation.

What I don't like is the dealer's misrepresentation of the originality of such cars - why can't they say up front that COX 5012 was a newly built car in the 2000s, not a '66? How can it have been rebuilt and refurbished?

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by london

What I don't like is the dealer's misrepresentation of the originality of such cars - why can't they say up front that

Because, usually, any presentation of an "AC" derivative made in the last 10 or 15 years usually begins with a string of fibs and ends with a preposterous story of some misdirected "legacy."

[london]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Because, usually, any presentation of an "AC" derivative made in the last 10 or 15 years usually begins with a string of fibs and ends with a preposterous story of some misdirected "legacy."

A pity since the AC continuation cars themselves are works of art.

[london]

Here's another one: COX 3361 which according to Coys, 'is an authorised continuation from Carroll Shelby's export Cobras from the 1960s' . Coys also say that this is 'a Shelby approved AC Cobra Mk III'.

http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?it...1&auctionID=13

It's debatable why Shelby would need to approve an AC produced car, but I would be very surprised if he had!

The first 2 cars in the 'continuation' series, COB 5001 and COB 5002 are also on sale, both cars in S/C guise and colours.

[london]

COX 3361 failed to meet Coy's asking price of £180,000 to £200,000; the highest bid was only £100,000 ($160,000).

[PANAVIA]

AC based car has heritage and a value based on that. it also depends on non-use and low miles.

-- if you are going to Drive the Car, - SPF or Kirkham.

- if you are going to dust it with an ostrich feather - get the AC.

[FatBoy]

I suspect the market is wising up to the somewhat flaky provenence of these so called "continuation" cars from AC, hence the failure of COX3361 to reach its reserve. I also think that many of these cars are tainted by the Lubinsky connection.

While the genuine cars are increasing in value at a depressing (at least for those of us who don't have one) rate, anything without real history and provenence is viewed with suspicion, which is reflected in the value.

I've read many claims about the quality of the later AC built cars, but in my experience, which admittedly, isn't vast, the quality isn't that high. You certainly wouldn't want a polished aluminium body on a Mk.IV in the way that many Kirkham owners do and that probably goes for the "continuation" cars as well. Many of the components used were raided from the parts bins of much lesser Ford models.

Nicely built Kirkhams are around the £100K mark in the UK.

Would I swap my Kirkham for one of these AC "continuations" if someone offered? Probably not.

Paul

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by PANAVIA

AC based car has heritage and a value based on that. it also depends on non-use and low miles.

-- if you are going to Drive the Car, - SPF or Kirkham.
- if you are going to dust it with an ostrich feather - get the AC.

Panavia, amen to that one. London, who would pay 250,000 quid for an AC car that was not an original? tin-man

[FatBoy]

Originally Posted by tin-man

Panavia, amen to that one. London, who would pay 250,000 quid for an AC car that was not an original? tin-man

I think that's it in a nutshell. The sellers of these cars are claiming that they are original and make spurious references to 1960's origins to justify the claims.

I don't believe they are any more original than the "original" Shelby Continuation 427S/C Cobras that he claimed were assembled from original chassis and components that he had lying around.

I'd be happy to be proved wrong.

Paul

[london]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

I suspect the market is wising up to the somewhat flaky provenence of these so called "continuation" cars from AC, hence the failure of COX3361 to reach its reserve. I also think that many of these cars are tainted by the Lubinsky connection.

While the genuine cars are increasing in value at a depressing (at least for those of us who don't have one) rate, anything without real history and provenence is viewed with suspicion, which is reflected in the value.

I've read many claims about the quality of the later AC built cars, but in my experience, which admittedly, isn't vast, the quality isn't that high. You certainly wouldn't want a polished aluminium body on a Mk.IV in the way that many Kirkham owners do and that probably goes for the "continuation" cars as well. Many of the components used were raided from the parts bins of much lesser Ford models.

Nicely built Kirkhams are around the £100K mark in the UK.

Would I swap my Kirkham for one of these AC "continuations" if someone offered? Probably not.

Paul

The AC Mk IVs I have seen are well built cars - admittedly the interior is not original but then these cars are a separate model in their own right rather than an exact clone of the 60s cars. However if you buy an AC you're buying a real marque with a history: the pre-war 16/70 drophead coupe, the Ace Bristol, the AC Le Mans Coupe 'A98' racing up the M1 on its test run at 180mph, the class win by '39PH' at Le Mans in 1963, the Italian styled AC 428, the mid-engined 3000ME. Your MkIV could well have been built by the same men who built some of the aforementioned cars. I'd therefore rather have an AC than the perfect Kirkham clone.

[RON N BKFLD]

The AC Mk IVs I have seen are well built cars - admittedly the interior is not original but then these cars are a separate model in their own right rather than an exact clone of the 60s cars. However if you buy an AC you're buying a real marque with a history: the pre-war 16/70 drophead coupe, the Ace Bristol, the AC Le Mans Coupe 'A98' racing up the M1 on its test run at 180mph, the class win by '39PH' at Le Mans in 1963, the Italian styled AC 428, the mid-engined 3000ME. Your MkIV could well have been built by the same men who built some of the aforementioned cars. I'd therefore rather have an AC than the perfect Kirkham clone.

Looks like the question in post #1 is answered.

[Dimis]

Each to their own, but I'd humbly prefer a Kirkham to an AC/CSX continuation car.

For mine, there is something to be said for the passion of the build and the artisan finish, rather than, what seems to be the Shelby mantra of sticking your name on it just to turn a profit.

I understand everyone needs to make a living, but...
I appreciate, respect & prefer the "pursuit of excellence".

Alas, if I was investing... then there are other "investment vehicles" to opt for if its about making money. Hence, not sure I'd ever buy an AC/CSX - even if I won lotto.

Kind regards,

[FUNFER2]

Originally Posted by london

Here's another one: COX 3361 which according to Coys, 'is an authorised continuation from Carroll Shelby's export Cobras from the 1960s' . Coys also say that this is 'a Shelby approved AC Cobra Mk III'.

http://www.coys.co.uk/auction.php?it...1&auctionID=13

It's debatable why Shelby would need to approve an AC produced car, but I would be very surprised if he had!

The first 2 cars in the 'continuation' series, COB 5001 and COB 5002 are also on sale, both cars in S/C guise and colours.

The blue cobra looks fantastic, one of the best. I'll clicked on the link for more info, but didn't see anything. Do you have more information and photo's ? (can't buy, just dreaming)

[FatBoy]

Originally Posted by RON N BKFLD

Looks like the question in post #1 is answered.

But the question wasn't about Mk.IVs, it was about these so called "continuation" cars from AC with the flaky histories.
The Mk.IV "Cobras" are legitimate cars that aren't claiming to be anything other than what they are, apart from maybe "Cobras".

[london]

Originally Posted by FUNFER2

The blue cobra looks fantastic, one of the best. I'll clicked on the link for more info, but didn't see anything. Do you have more information and photo's ? (can't buy, just dreaming)

Here's the link again:

Hofmann's - AC - Cobra 427 MkIII


It's Trevor Legate's old car.

[KevinW]

One of the reasons the Legate car is priced so high is :

(a) Trevor once owned it, although Ive never understood why so few miles on it, if these are genuine, given Trevor is/was a genuine enthusiast;

(b) It has FIA papers, so is qualified to be used in historic racing. I beleive this means demonstrating some right to be considered as historic. so some dubious claim that the chassis was actually welded up before Jan 1970 is needed I think, and ofcourse, a suitable year of registration

http://www.hscc.org.uk/resources/HRS...egs%202011.pdf
http://www.goodmanderrick.co.uk/__da...l_passport.pdf

[so from last link.... come on guys, providing its a FBB and a toploader, roll up and get yer historic FIA papers and double your cars value! ]

(c) as stated earlier it does have a proper ali body fettled on the original bucks (pardon the pun )

Its a murky business, and anyone with an ounce of nouce will now that a COX5XXXX never existed in the 60s.

Incidently I have been quietly tracking the passage of the Legate car over the past year or two. It appears to me to be a car that is regualrly passed around different dealerships, and always for an asking price of approx £250-260k, when the dealer can be honest enough to state upfront rather than some POA crap that you sometimes see on AC or Shelby-badged cars.