B2 Motorsports - Jeff Lipton 487 FE Build

[undy]

Sorry, didn't mean to pee on anyone's parade with the "lesser" statement...

There's a water jacket near the lifter bores?? I can't say for sure, but the sleeves didn't really look at like a water leak band-aide. In fact, as I recall at the time, Keith made mention of the "niceness" of them too. Maybe Keith installed them?

How long have you been using Pond's blocks? This sort of bugs me, I think I'll call Robert & Keith to discuss tomorrow and see if those once were the standard bill-o-fare.

[blykins]

I've been using them for several years. I'll have to look back at my notes and see when I built the first one.

Turns out, the first one that I used, I had it pressure tested (standard fare for all aftermarket blocks I use, stems from my experience with Dove products) and it bubbled up through a couple of lifter bores. They back up against the water around the cylinders and if there's any porosity, they will bubble out there.

[blykins]

Well, it's been a long time coming....

Had some minor technicalities with some parts, but finally got everything straightened out and moving forward.

Dyno'ing on the 22nd.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Well, it's been a long time coming....

Had some minor technicalities with some parts, but finally got everything straightened out and moving forward.

Dyno'ing on the 22nd.

I bet it would run better with a carb on it.

[Dimis]

Dyno on the 22nd...!

Gives us just enough time to play - guess the hp/tq figures.

I'll guess: 666hp with 666tq with a sinister engine note.
Just cos it sounds like one hell of a build!

[blykins]

Well it's been a sinister build for sure....hahaha

Torque would never be as high as the horsepower on a build like this, and I've never seen a 480-500 inch FE have over 600-620 lb-ft of torque on a normal hydraulic roller build.

We use a Stuska dyno, which shows anywhere from 25-50 hp lower than the DTS and Superflow stuff, so I told Jeff I was going to stay conservative on my guess.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by blykins

Well it's been a sinister build for sure....hahaha

Torque would never be as high as the horsepower on a build like this, and I've never seen a 480-500 inch FE have over 600-620 lb-ft of torque on a normal hydraulic roller build.

We use a Stuska dyno, which shows anywhere from 25-50 hp lower than the DTS and Superflow stuff, so I told Jeff I was going to stay conservative on my guess.

Good to see you.

[lippy]

As you might imagine, I'm really excited to get this beast. I'm curious to see what it puts out but my guess is 650-670 HP and 625 lb-ft.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

As you might imagine, I'm really excited to get this beast. I'm curious to see what it puts out but my guess is 650-670 HP and 625 lb-ft.

Remember, to get a true indication of the performance of the engine, you should insist that the engine be dyno'd with sidepipes attached and, preferably, with the water pump pumping. Otherwise, you're just fooling yourself.

[blykins]

Not feasible with a lot of setups. Cobra headers and side pipes just don't fit on every dyno.

Also, with 600-650 hp, the 5-8 hp that a water pump absorbs really isnt a concern. ;-)

He's more than welcome to put it on a chassis dyno, but trying to reproduce the conditions that it will be under in the car isn't easy or do-able in most cases.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Not feasible with a lot of setups. Cobra headers and side pipes just don't fit on every dyno.

We've had this thread topic many times before. It is without question more accurate to bench dyno an engine destined for a Cobra with the primaries and side pipes on. Many of us had it done (me, for instance). But, I'll let the matter drop. I'm sure Chas will chime in though on him with something snappy like "Pat's just trying to stir the pot, but he is right, and you'll just be fooling yourself if you rely on open pipe numbers. But, of course, we lie best when we lie to ourselves...."

[lippy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

We've had this thread topic many times before. It is without question more accurate to bench dyno an engine destined for a Cobra with the primaries and side pipes on. Many of us had it done (me, for instance). But, I'll let the matter drop. I'm sure Chas will chime in though on him with something snappy like "Pat's just trying to stir the pot, but he is right, and you'll just be fooling yourself if you rely on open pipe numbers. But, of course, we lie best when we lie to ourselves...."

Sure, it's more of an indication of real world performance if headers and sidepipes are on. But the actual peak dyno numbers aren't that important to me. We chose the parts we did, and Brent did a very careful job optimizing the build by porting, adjusting the carb, matching the intake, etc. So really the build is what it is at this point. A big peak number is nice, but we do the dyno run for other reasons too, like verifying the integrity of the parts and the assembly, checking for leaks, and optimizing the tune.

[blykins]

Patrick, you are fooling yourself if you are that reliant on dyno numbers anyway. They are for one purpose and one purpose only...to verify integrity and tune at WOT. I can dyno it here and send it 50 miles down the road and get another 50 hp.

You're also fooling yourself if you think that everything will be perfectly simulated more than 3/4 of the way across the country. Gas is not the same. Sea level is not the same.

It's not up to me what the customer does when he gets it. I can make recommendation as to what size and shape headers and pipes to put on it to be optimal. For all I know, Jeff could ditch the TKO and put a C6 in the car and drop another 50 hp to the tires.

I can only optimize here, what the customer does with it when they get it is beside the point.

[blykins]

Btw Patrick, I thought that you had a little more respect for me than to stick your head in a build thread just to insinuate that I'm not doing things up to your "standard."

Chas, my point from the other day is being backed up yet again.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

I can only optimize here, what the customer does with it when they get it is beside the point.

That's reasonable.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Btw Patrick, I thought that you had a little more respect for me than to stick your head in a build thread just to insinuate that I'm not doing things up to your "standard."

No, I would have said the same thing even if it was my favorite top NASCAR team building it for ten times the price. If it was me, I would have shipped my pipes over to you and had you put them on for the test (which is what I did).

[blykins]

Explain to me why that's logical in any way when you can go to another dyno and see 5-10% difference in hp? It's a waste of time in every respect unless you were dyno tuning headers for a race application, where the engine would come off the dyno and go in the car and be raced in the same vacinity so the tune would be correct.

Done.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Explain to me why that's logical in any way when you can go to another dyno and see 5-10% difference in hp?

Well, I, for one, had custom pipes built to be a bit more quiet, with the knowledge that it would cost some horsepower. Dyno'ing with pipes on gives a truer representation of what the engine is delivering at the flywheel when it's actually in the car. If you're arguing that dynos are inherently so inaccurate that any effort to improve on how they represent the "true strength" of what you're dropping in to your Cobra is just a waste of time, well, then I'll just give up....

[blykins]

They are not "inaccurate", but the different brands show different results. A DTS will usually show lower than a Superflow. A Stuska will usually show lower than a Superflow.

On a rear wheel setup, a Mustang brand will show lower than a Dynojet.

I have fits because of the various dyno shoot-offs on the forum. As others have said, the only real true indicator of how much horsepower you have is to take it to the strip. Otherwise, I can literally dyno an engine on the dyno that I use, then take it 50 miles down the road and get a bigger number. It's not that guys are falsifying the numbers because they want to sell horsepower....well, maybe a select few are, but different brands show different results.

So, to pay big money to ship someone headers and sidepipes to use on their dyno just to get a true indication of what the engine is doing through the exhaust is really futile. Say you dyno it and get 550 hp, then take it to another dyno and get 500. What was the use?

You don't race flow benches and you don't race dynos....both are just really good tools for coming up with a standard, then seeing what differentials you get by trying different things.

[xb-60]

Brent - isn't Patrick correct in suggesting pipes being fitted? If the purpose of dyno testing is "to verify integrity and tune at WOT", what's the point of tuning with no pipes and no air filter in particular, when the tune is likely to be different when pipes and filter are finally added when the engine goes into Lippy's car and he actually gets to drive it?
Cheers,
Glen