B2 Motorsports - Cliff Rosson All-Aluminum 331 SBF Build

[ERA2076]

[IMG][/IMG]

[blykins]

I was thinking around 375....that's awesome....

[ERA2076]

It really is -

I never dreamed we would hit that. I was hoping for 400.

gearbox weighs 69
10 lbs of clutch and plate
QuickTime ?? (25lb I hope)

So engine and box assembled => 480 lb - fantastic.

Amazing to thing the ERA Gen1 rear assembly weighed 344.

We might hit 2200 => 4.6lb/hp.

My SVT => 9.1 lb/hp from the factory

Pretty sure the 351 with Lakewood and 3550 was 730 and the car weighed 2440 with some fuel in it.

Really cool Brent - number one goal is to build it lite.

chr

[blykins]

Quicktime will be 25 lbs or less.

[ERA2076]

original engine 351w - Lakewood - T3550 => 627lb

this engine - QuickTime - T5 => 480lb

147 reduction.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by ERA2076

original engine 351w - Lakewood - T3550 => 627lb

this engine - QuickTime - T5 => 480lb

147 reduction.

How much does adding the weber system add.
Surely it's got to be heavier than the single carb no?

[ERA2076]

The IDAs and manifold weigh 40.

A performer intake weighed 17 - the carb that came weighs 7.5

so +15 for the Webs.

[blykins]

Yet another reason for me to hate Webers.....

[ERA2076]

The stang bell housing had most of that solved.

The car has the possibility to kill in several different ways - the wheel being the least of my worries.

If it's gonna get you, you want to be pulled dead from a Cobra with a set of Webers or a bling 4 barrel :

A romanticist at heart

[blykins]

If it's gonna get me, I want to be pulled from a winning car......not one with Webers.

Don't overlook the safety of your legs and feet. I've seen plenty of pictures of clutch and flywheel explosions. It happens, even with lightweight parts. No way I'd use an aluminum bellhousing in anything that got raced.

[ERA2076]

There is a lot involved in building something that will run and then you have to have someone willing to run it and that is the hurdle which is most difficult to overcome. I don't have any illusions about that.

There can only ever be one winner, so a car with Webers will always be the darling compared to colored foo foo.

If a Webered winner were built - well then -

[blykins]

I have the utmost confidence in your driving ability Cliff.

The issue I have is with parts that just look good and don't perform as they ought. As an example, I feel the same about Aviaid oil pans as I do about Webers...they cost twice as much as a Moroso or Canton, but take twice as long to install. I've used 3 Aviaid pans in the past 6-8 months and yours was the only one that didn't leak...

You will never convince me that a well-tuned Weber setup will outperform a well-tuned single carb setup. It's not happening.

[ERA Chas]

I know it's not a possibility in this particular build, but just daydreaming here...
In a qualified way, I agree with Brent. Meaning, I think Webers may show the ability to match or slightly out-perform a Holley in the mid range. But nowhere else. So a same-day, back to back dyno test would be most informative to prove Brent's point. But that is fraught with difficulties.
I know Brent rents dyno time so the cost beyond the parts and set-up time escalates. It would require that the Webers be optimized on the test engine (friendly cam for one) and correctly tuned. Plenty of time / $$.
The Holley would also require that (but much easier to optimize) and a fuel pressure change, but then, unfairly operate with a tame cam-and not show its full potential. It can however, be tuned for the subject engine and get a max report for that engine's spec.
Dynos aside, lap times would be the ultimate test bed for Cliff's usage. Also difficult to arrange and can't be a same day deal for the parts swapping.
I know, Cliff wants them for what they are; Cobra icons and it's his dime in play here. But like Brent, I think the ultimate test numbers and lap times go to the stone-age Holley.

[Jac Mac]

There is an often repeated story about racing cars not dyno's,. The dyno only gives a result for that dyno and its setup, in the car the air and how it is presented to the carburettor/'s regardless of type is critical and virtually impossible to replicate on a dyno setup, and it changes with each body style etc.

But Im with the Holley/4bbl guys, the webers cant keep up on an individual runner basis & I have yet to see anyone really create a setup with plenum chamber that actually works, not saying it cannot be done, just yet to see or read of it happening!

[olddog]

I never saw or heard of a family car sold by any manufacture with a webber setup. Further yet, no mussel cars either. Back in the day, I only saw them on cars being raced. So if race teams were going to the expense and trouble to run a webber setup, there had to be an advantage. Otherwise those race teams were idiots, unless rules forced them to run them (which I doubt).

Just because grandma doesn't know how to use a cell phone and cannot see any reason to use one, doesn't mean they do not work well in the hands of someone who knows how to use one.

[RodKnock]

Maybe you folks have discussed this already, but a couple of our illustrious members have installed Webers on their small black ERA's and have had success and Fullchat289 and Jeffy seem to know WTF they're doing:







Now, I don't have the time, inclination or ability to solve the Weber mystery, but if I did, then they would be installed on my car right now. Fuillchat has a great detailed thread on his entire car and his Weber installation.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by blykins

You will never convince me that a well-tuned Weber setup will outperform a well-tuned single carb setup. It's not happening.

I've no real experience to counter this... but I can't help the feeling that (and its just an unsubstantiated feeling), this may be true for moon-shining, oval racing and possibly even drag racing where the engine lives at the upper limit of its rev range.

That said, I can't help shake the thoughts that in a Road Racing situation, where an engine is driven through a wider range of its RPM band, I suspect the ability of the webers to "react" and physically suck in more air/fuel at instantaneous moment at a transient accelerator shifts may help justify its "racing reputation".

Like I said - I've no evidence or experience... and to be fair, if I drove a car with one over the other, I'd probably lay down the same lap times, and wouldn't be able to tell the difference without opening the hood.
But that's just me.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by olddog

Further yet, no mussel cars either. Back in the day, I only saw them on cars being raced. So if race teams were going to the expense and trouble to run a webber setup, there had to be an advantage.

Not 'family cars' but many street-driven sports cars like Ferraris and Lambos ran them.
In the 60's, they were an improvement for high RPM, small displacement (under 5 liter) engines. Witness the GT-40 program-but no MK II 427's. But this ignores the fact that the improvements through modification of the Holleys to the present time has far eclipsed Weber development. As has fuel injection.

[ERA2076]

I hope to get some data for the 2 setups. My plan is to get the car settled enough on the track using the 4bl then switch to Webs. The shop that is setting up the Webs tunes with a chassis dyno. I plan to chassis dyno the 4 bl then swap and dyno the Webs.

Brent will have his day (or) and I will have my darling, what is not to like?

Here is a babe -



Come on - you'd have her

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by ERA2076

I hope to get some data for the 2 setups. My plan is to get the car settled enough on the track using the 4bl then switch to Webs. The shop that is setting up the Webs tunes with a chassis dyno. I plan to chassis dyno the 4 bl then swap and dyno the Webs.

Brent will have his day (or) and I will have my darling, what is not to like?

Damn close to my daydream-you da man...
Only asterisk is that Brenty can make more overall power with the motor cammed for Holley, thus higher performance than the Webs could ever muster. The Webs in effect limit the motor.
But I'll take the test as you present it.