Carroll Shelby Engine Company

[Jamo]

Gunner...when a moderator suggests something, follow it. I've tried to redirect your efforts a couple of times in this thread. Get rid of the edge to your posts now...last warning.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Gunner...when a moderator suggests something, follow it. I've tried to redirect your efforts a couple of times in this thread. Get rid of the edge to your posts now...last warning.

I guess I started it with my post. Sorry.

If you want to delete it, be my guest.

[Jamo]

Nope...no need, but thanks.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by Gunner

I ".................. It might be worth noting that Shelby's "development" of the 289 seems to be limited to a joint call from him and Ford to see if a 289 could be made to fit in the Ace chassis - whereupon AC did all the engineering, work and testing and answered "Yup" - then proceeded to build complete rollers that were shipped to Shelby, who *gasp* installed the engines on this side of the pond.

It might be worth noting that the 427 chassis was designed, developed and tested by AC after a similar phone call a year or two later. Ditto on the production.

I do sometimes have trouble distinguishing exactly *what* Unca Carroll did except for final assembly and race tweaking. ................"

There is substantial documentation that details the development work done by Shelby, Phil Remington, and eventually by Ken Miles.

In any case we all have our beliefs about the Cobra history and both sides embrace the history or "facts" which support their argument. Likewise both sides are dismissive of the history that contradicts their argument.

In any pissing contest both sides end up stinking, so put away the big guns & go for a drive.

Z. Ray

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by zrayr

There is substantial documentation that details the development work done by Shelby, Phil Remington, and eventually by Ken Miles.

Of course there is - but as much as I would like to believe the PR presentation that CS personally gave birth to these cars, grunting and sweating all the way, the evidence is that he took largely (entirely?) off-the-shelf technology, had someone else do nearly all the work, and did no more than any other racer of the era in tweaking, tuning and prepping the cars.

I'd suggest that when one of us calls Kirkham or ERA and places a highly customized order, then builds the car from those parts and others we select, and track-tune the result into fitness, we have done neither more nor less than Team Shelby. We merely have their track record and experience to start with, just as they had their own and the experiences of other body+engine builder/racers of the 1950s to draw on.

I'm not out to denigrate Shelby, man or team. But the mythos (as implied in certain posts of this thread, for example) does get tiresome.

[Jamo]

I've always been comfortable with seeing Shelby as a fine winemaker.

He didn't grow the grapes. He didn't even process most of them into juice.

However, as with most of the great winemakers, he lent his touch to merging the nector of several vineyards into an outstanding blend which challenged, in fact, exceeded the offerings of the Old World root stock.

I am able to drink to that.

[Gunner]

Executive producers have their place.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I am able to drink to that.

I agree. A guy (Shelby in this case) doesn't have to sweat his blood and guts out to be regarded as a significant contributor. Too many people complain because they think his contribution was overhyped. I am fairly confident, that when the 289 and 427 cars came to be, he wasn't standing around thinking, "Hmmmmm, I wonder if all the replica owners are going to hate me 40 years from now for not contributing enough to this endeavor." He just did what he did and the rest is history. I am also pretty sure that, chicken farmer or otherwise, he was paying the rent and issuing payroll checks to all the others in his Cobra-building entourage, so that counts for something.

[dcdoug]

And like or dislike him, pretty unlikely that the 289 and 427 cobras would have happened at all without Shelby.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

And like or dislike him, pretty unlikely that the 289 and 427 cobras would have happened at all without Shelby.

the racing success is what set Shelby's efforts above the others that put an American V-8 in a small car. If the Cobra's hadn't won races Ford would not have kept funding him. That's a lot of pressure to be under. But the Cobra won, and Ford "rewarded" Shelby with the Mustang venture. He really regarded the Mustangs as a side show. If he could've kept building pure race cars he would have been happier.


Z. Ray

[REAL 1]

Guys that want to down play what Shelby did are in fact are denigrating what he accomplished while peddling the hoohy that they aren't really denigrating what he accomplished. Perhaps those guys should find another car to be enthusiastic about like well...a Ferrari or Corvette they can be more enthusiastic about.

Shelby took off the shelf technology and won? Really? Seems like someone needs to do a bit more reading about SAI and the history of the Cobra before talking and appearing unread on the subject while at the same referring to others as "idiots". How ironic. LOL.

While Shelby didn't do the wrenching himself he was the central force in putting together and managing a winning organization and a successful organization utilizing a handful of talented California hot rodders. Shelby has always been the first guy to give his employees and drivers the credit they deserved. Always. Anyone who doubts this is ignorant on the subject. Shelby and his team did in fact, however, take an AC Ace which was a design and technology nearly 15 years out of date and antiquated as of 1962 and not only made it a National winner in USRRC but also a world champion taking on world class competition. Moreover one of Shelby's most famous accomplishments, and not quite "off the shelf" technology was the Daytona Coupe. While Brock designed it, Brock was also hand picked by Shelby as part of the talented team SAI put together. But I'm sure you knew all this.

Shelby was also heavily involved in turning the famous GT40 into a winner. I'm sure you knew all this too.

While I have only scratched the surface of the facts as to what CS and SAI accomplished there is no shortage of books, videos, articles and even websites devoted to the Cobra and Shelby and his accomplishments both on the race track and in bringing us iconic cars. I guess all those authors, producers of films never caught on to how ordinary and prosaic Mr. Shelby's accomplishments really were.

Someone just unzipped their fly clearly exposed their lack of knowledge on the subject. Anyone who is also getting tired of the "mythos" of Carroll Shelby perhaps should find another hobby and car to be enthused about and stop denigrating the central figure in the Cobra hobby as to his accomplishments. Shelby is an automotive icon. With enthusiasts like those who are "getting tired" of the Shelby "mythos" and who seem to think what Shelby accomplished is no more then what he (the faux enthusiiast) could do by ordering ERA parts and testing them to performance specs (laughable for sure) we don't need detactors. To that type of "enthusiast" I say "Sell the Cobra replica and buy a Corvette". Sheesh.

By the way "mythos" is an inappropriate word to use when speaking of Shelby's accomplishments and automotive iconic status. Shelbys accomplishments are founded on well documented historical fact not mere beliefs and his iconic status is based on those accomplishments.


P.S. Mr. Rodknock: By your conclusion of what Kopec said you clearly didn't get what he was saying. You need to read the Registry which makes it clear and once you read the Registry it will be clear that you don't own a Cobra but a replica of one. Thats what SAAC says I'm just repeating it. Sorry. Second, why should I give a rats a$$ what owners of originals think? In fact I don't because there is no reason to.

Takes care.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

P.S. Mr. Rodknock: By your conclusion of what Kopec said you clearly didn't get what he was saying. You need to read the Registry which makes it clear and once you read the Registry it will be clear that you don't own a Cobra but a replica of one. Thats what SAAC says I'm just repeating it. Sorry. Second, why should I give a rats a$$ what owners of originals think? In fact I don't because there is no reason to.

Evan, you better read the Registry or at least re-read it. I own a "Kirkham Cobra". I do not see any references to the Kirkham Cobra being a replica.

[RodKnock]

Further on Page 708 of the Registry, I quote "This left the true replicas-like Shelby's CSX4000's-to come up with another name to describe themselves. Because he did not want his cars devalued by using the term "replica", Shelby chose "Component Cobra."

[RodKnock]

My original contention was about the market value, whether ERA, BDR, SPF, Kirkham, CSX, etc, as it relates to each individual's build cost though. I think the percentage return are relatively similar.

[Jamo]

Evan...when a moderator has already corrected conduct by a poster, the very last thing that is called for is a response to the subject conduct (ie., the "idiots" reference).

This thread has turned into repititious commentary which does nothing to forward the evolution of mankind, and, in fact, it may be increasing global warming.

In other words...it's over.