GR-1, Possible replica?

[slider701]

Could this car ever be built as a production based car????? The simple answer is yes, you’re only limited by time and money. A prime example is the Ellison – Kirkham Cobra.

The real question comes down to economics and the business case to actually build it. The other part of the equation is the bastardization that would be needed to make the car legal to meet FMVSS and CARB standards for a 2014 – 2016 model year (assuming you could even get it done that quickly)

The Ford GT program was between $125 – 150MM in development costs. This was an all out effort by Ford bringing the best of the best in terms of design engineers, manufacturing guys, and management together to make it happen in 24 months (plus the head start that was laid down in the 6-8+ years on the Petunia program leading up to it). Bill Ford gave the team unlimited resources and a free pass to do what it would take to make the program happen in order to meet the centennial anniversary. This included amnesty from many of the bureaucratic Ford processes and also from the mainstream product development management who didn’t understand the purpose or need for the Ford GT program.

To produce a production version of the GR-1 today would most likely take double or triple the resources (in both manpower and $$$) due to the more stringent crash and emissions regulations. This was one of the reasons the Ford GT never was produced beyond 2006. The bumper and seating/airbag requirements made further production of the car not financially feasible and would have drastically altered the appearance of the front and rear of the car. In looking at the body lines of the GR-1 it most likely would be even more of a challenge. A typical new car development program for a high volume vehicle is between $750MM - $2BB depending on the scope of the program and how much can carry over from previous generations of models. Even a low volume vehicle, like a SVT product that is based off an existing product line can cost $50-100MM. Trying to amortize the engineering costs along with the material and labor costs into a $30K vehicle just doesn’t work out financially. Without a compelling reason (like the 100th anniversary of Ford Motor Company) it just doesn’t make business sense to produce a vehicle like this as a main stream application.

With all of that said it would still be nice for someone like the Kirkhams to approach Ford/Shelby in attempting to make this vehicle on a low volume “kit” type of roller to avoid the crash/emissions standards. The CAD files exist for this vehicle. All it would take is getting the right people at Ford and Shelby to agree to this. That in itself would most likely prove to be more of a challenge than actually building the car.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

But how would 'you' as a replica builder want it done, on chassis similar to what we have now, or grafted on to a donor car floorpan as intimated above. For me it would be on a chassis similar to current replicas or perhaps an alloy mono type chassis like the RCR cars adapted of course to the front engine/transaxle deal. Im not a fan of adapting to an existing unit body floorpan like some of the GTO F****** car lookalikes, too much corrosion waiting to happen when the f/glass is bonded to the steel structure & while its a relatively inexpensive way to build the car initially, in the case of accident damage its a nightmare to rebuild other than buying another donor floorpan & starting again.

This is the sort of input I'm seeking. I have no interest in viewing this as a production car by any manufacturer. I'm trying to see how a replica-based mfgr would evaluate this car-both from a business and technical sense. Thanks, Jac.

Originally Posted by mr bruce

To answer the original question, could this car be built as a replica, yes, nuthin' to it, send me $5k a month for 12 months and I'll build you a running, driving replica of that car. Keep in mind that's FoMoCo's design, so you pay all legal fees too.

OK Bruce, so you're saying to go get all the legalities and permissions straight first then come to you money in hand-then go away while you scratch build it. Correct?
My question then is- where and how do you acquire accurate source material to build replicas? Do you just get the photos and whack foam chunks into something that resembles it? Something that looks this good would live or die on the accuracy of lines, proportions and dimensions.
And assuming as customer I wanted an original-style simple ladder chassis and say a blown 4 valve Mod motor-
you'd build as such?

Originally Posted by slider701

With all of that said it would still be nice for someone like the Kirkhams to approach Ford/Shelby in attempting to make this vehicle on a low volume “kit” type of roller to avoid the crash/emissions standards. The CAD files exist for this vehicle. All it would take is getting the right people at Ford and Shelby to agree to this. That in itself would most likely prove to be more of a challenge than actually building the car.

This is very correct Slider. Your previous points are just what I strictly want to avoid for such a project-the necessary evils to make it a production car.
Yes the CAD does exist but it was all created by someone inside Ford and is their intellectual property. How does one legally obtain the material and permission to turn this into a very low volume replica vehicle?
Assuming it makes sense as their business model, I'm sure it would take an entity with the stature of the Kirkhams to legally acquire the material and produce a roller replica.

I'm speculating along the lines of what the Smiths of FF did when they created their GT coupe. The difference being that it's THEIR intelluctual property and design-not an existing concept, prototype or production car (past or present).

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Sharroll Celby

The GR-1 does NOT have to be sold at a premium price. Let Ford put their 310 HP V6 in it, at $25,000, with an optional V8 at $30,000, and watch them FLY out of the lots.

You need a much better understanding of auto sales dynamics and costs. Really. Engine cost is not the make or break figure here.

[RedBarchetta]

Gunner, I believe a '10 Camaro comparo was attempted on that one. But Ford already has the 'Stang and they are reviving the 5.0 GT, so it would be wasted effort. Besides, the GR-1 is waaaay too sexier for that...could be easily postured in the Z06/Viper arena. In this economy though, no one is going to touch that thin market.

Which brings us back to the only shop that could actually pull it off in kit or turn-key minus form...Kirkham.

[Sharroll Celby]

Originally Posted by Gunner

You need a much better understanding of auto sales dynamics and costs. Really. Engine cost is not the make or break figure here.

So, tell me YOUR understanding of auto sales dynamics and costs.....

Ford (and others) make MILLIONS of cars a year. Why NOT make one that has some style to it?

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by Sharroll Celby

So, tell me YOUR understanding of auto sales dynamics and costs.....

Well, we're a little short on room. Ford can't make a car the way the Kirkhams do - it has to be engineered, part by part, from the ground up, for production in a particular fashion. When there's a suitable platform to borrow and reshape, it saves some work. But the bottom line is that Car #1 from an assembly line costs $200M or more in development and production readiness.

Now, who do you sell this car to? The market for a completely custom-engineered beast is very slim. They won't sell millions, or even significant thousands, of something in the $50-60k range. So you move down market and build it on a Mustang or similar platform... thereby losing all the buyers who want a properly engineered sports car, not a reworked Mustang at a premium price. And you still can't sell all that many snarky 2-seaters... go add up the sales of the Vette, the Miata/MX5, the S2000, etc. and I don't think you hit 100k units a year.

Your "millions of them at $25,000" is a pipe dream completely unconnected to car-making and -buying reality. This isn't esoteric knowledge - anyone who's paid attention to production car history for the last 20-30 years would grasp it.

Ford (and others) make MILLIONS of cars a year. Why NOT make one that has some style to it?

I think they do. Not Lamborghini-Ferrari style, because there's a limited market for those cars and it's pretty much saturated. But I think Ford does well serving the markets it does with the vehicles it develops. Could be better. Could be prettier here and there. Could be there's there's an occasional clunker in there. But not bad. Better than cookie-cutter, rebadging old crap endlessly GM!

[Sharroll Celby]

Now you are making stuff up. I never wrote "millions of them at $25,000".

Ford COULD build the GR-1 on the Mustang platform, or even the Fusion platform, thus saving all the millions of dollars in development costs. Of course, the market for a completely custom-engineered beast is very slim. Sure, they lose all the buyers who want a properly-engineered sports car. I would wager that those customers are FAR fewer than your typical Mustang buyer. LOTS of buyers buy their cars on LOOKS alone, as long as it fills their needs. Remember, Ford built the original 64 1/2 Mustang on the Falcon chassis, and sold over a million Mustangs those first couple of years.

I think the GR-1, on a rebodied Mustang chassis, (and possibly called the Thunderbird!) would have the capability of selling over 100,000 units a year, if priced correctly.

[RedBarchetta]

Don't forget this little concept called "product cannibalization." If Ford did decide to build a $30K example of this car, that's XX,XXX many Mustangs that they won't otherwise sell. So they've essentially shot themselves in the foot by lowering their ROI on the Mustang production line.

Again, I defer to master fabricators like Kirkham to eventually offer something with these lines and sizzle. Ford won't because, well (1) they choose to and (2) they have too many shareholders to please. You lose a lot of freedoms when you go public.

[Sharroll Celby]

Is it not possible (or probable?) that Ford would sell MORE Mustangs AND GR-1s than just Mustangs alone? How many Falcon sales were lost when the Mustang debuted? WAY less than Mustangs sold! It could go wither way.