351w roller vs 351 non-roller blocks

[Pman1961]

I have an opportunity to purchase a new 408w stroker short block. It has a 4340 crank, h beam rods, SRP pistons with a main girdle. Block work and assembly was done by a reputable shop. It appears that this is a 1969 year block. He told me the engine code was C4AE-8016-A 2 and was hard to read so I would assume it is a C9AE etc. C, I understand is the decade of the motor which is 60's and 9 being the year. I assume that it is a 9 because the 351 windsor was not manufacturered until 1969 am I correct? The following are a list of questions I hope you good guys can answer: I'm sure this is a 2 pc rear main seal. Will this block be prone to rear main seal leaks? Are roller block items such as water pumps, flywheel, etc. interchangeable with non-roller blocks other than the lifters? Will there be any additional work to make the non-roller a roller block other than the use of retro-fit lifters or drill and tap for spyder? The rotating assembly is balanced for the 28 oz dampner and flywheel. If the motor is making 550hp or less is there any advantages of the internal balanced assembly? Also, will the main girdle work with the front sump oil pans? Any other advantages or disadvantages would be appreciated.

[blykins]

No, it will not be more prone to rear main seal leaks. It will be just fine.

The difference is the way the lifters are held down if you're using a hydraulic roller lifter. In the older blocks, you either have to drill/tap the lifter galley for a lifter spider or use link-bar lifters. The newer roller blocks already have that provision.

Everything else should be interchangeable with the exception of the water pump. The newer blocks had serpentine setups, which requires the water pump to be a reverse rotation pump. If the short block already has a timing chain cover on it, you can look at it and see which water pump it's set up for as this is not block specific....i.e. you can put a serpentine setup on an older block, or run a regular v-belt system.

For a lower rpm street engine, you will not notice any differences between externally/internally balanced assemblies.

With the main girdles, there are some that are larger than others and have a step-out where the oil pump is. These will cause some interference with front sump pans and sometimes the pans have to be "massaged."

[blykins]

BTW, you are correct in assuming that it's a '69. Those blocks were a little different as the deck height was a little shorter than later 351W blocks.

[Pman1961]

Blykins, thank you very much for the information. I've been a Chevy man all my life so I'm needing a little education on Fords. With the deck height being slightly different 9.48" for 69 and 70 years over 9.5" have you heard of any instances of head or intake needing milling to compensate the differences? When you say 'massage the pan' will it need a bump or two to clear or something more like removal of metal and rebuild? Could the girdle be ground slightly? My car is SPF 2423 and I currently have the 351w 385hp crate motor with 2k miles. Runs great and has excellent mannerizms but I'm wanting a bit more since I'm a hot rodder at heart. Not to abuse the car it's that feeling you get driving the car when you know it can get nasty when asked. I had considered stroking my Sportsman block but in the past having machine work done took very very long time and we are getting into the good weather so I would like to keep my down time to a minimum. So my options are to swap my existing components onto the new block and part out the 385hp crate motor or sell my motor as a whole and build a new motor. I'm going to be using the Keith Craft 195cc Signature heads on the 408 combo. Anybody want a perfectly running motor?

[Dwight]

You are going to love Keith's heads.

I bought a pair 185's Brodix heads from him a little over a year ago for my stroked 302. They are making some power.

Get him to recomend a cam for your set up.

I can cruise at 1500 rpm's and rev to 7000. Best motor I have every had.

Keith's the man.

Dwight

[vector1]

don't worry about the shorter deck height. most blocks that have been machined privately are usually cut .010-.020 under. if you look at the different pistons listed they are usually for shorter deck height.

you can use your crate engine stuff and put it on the shortblock, except for the cam and/or lifters--because you are going from a roller block to a non-roller. you will probably want a stronger cam anyway so that is a wash. i've read some don't like the retro cams because the smaller base circle making them more prone to breakage and flex. you can use a normal hyd roller cam and retro hyd lifters ($450 range), flat tappet cam with the associated hyd or solid flat tappets, or solid roller cam with solid roller lifters. it's when you use the hyd roller setup and switch between blocks that you have to be careful. i'm not real sure on the hyd roller options btw.

i have a pretty good solid roller cam 244 dur and .600+ lift and with a 408 an engine analyzer program shows pk tq at 4600 and pk hp at 5700, so you should be within the limits of your 28 oz. external balance.

main girdle, sell it and recoup some money. make sure the block is studded on the mains and heads.

you know you can change the heads and cam out on your crate motor and pickup some pretty good power.

i'm up the road if you want to pm me with pricing on your crate engine however you sell it, i'm starting a build but could put it on hold.

good luck.

[blykins]

Pman,

The shorter deck height will not hurt anything. Sometimes it makes it harder to find pistons to work with a particular combination, but since your short block is already done, you should have no worries.

The girdle/pan clearance will depend on what pan you go with. I did a 425W with a Probe main girdle and a Canton T-sump oil pan. That particular combo required that I dimple the oil pan out in a certain area so the girdle would clear. I did a 347 a few months ago with a DSS girdle and a Canton pan and it didn't require anything. So it just depends on the combo.

I think you'd be fine to just put the parts on the 408. The 195cc is a little small for my liking on an engine that size, but if they flow well, it should offer good port velocity and throttle response for a street cruiser.

[Keithc8]

You say that he said C4 on the block and it may be D4 because there were a lot of 351W blocks cast with the D4AE on them and we have used a lot of them. Like was said earlier most all of your stuff will transfer. We can help with the heads you wanted as well as get you the right pushrods. If it does not have the lifters we can help get you the lifters with the correct valley tey that will work with the early block. We do a lot of our 408 engines with the D2 and D4 blocks. No problem with the 69 just a little shorter deck hieght.

Good luck, Keith

[Pman1961]

I appreciate all the advice. I had considered and is still is in my thoughts to just replace the heads with the 195 KC Signatures milled to increase compression, new cam and swap the victor jr. style intake for the rpm air-gap. I'm curious about how much improvements I would see over the stock 385hp crate motor. I did have one email correspondence with Keith Craft early winter and had talked with Lance but I've been to busy over the winter to make changes to the motor and now I've got the itch. I've had a sbc 383 and 434 stroker and they were fun. The deal on the block seems to good to pass up should he not back out. I'll have an answer tomorrow. Using the 408 block and since it is 28oz I could use a lot of peices from my crate motor and sell the short block, heads, etc. to keep costs down. My intentions were to bump the cam with this motor and I would talk to KC to see if he would recommend the 210's cylinder heads. If this would have been a roller block I would use the lifters and push rods from the crate motor and replace the cam. I'll update tomorrow. Thanks again.

[Dwight]

I understand the 74 block is a good one.
If your compression is 9:1 or more, you will be good. Don't mill the heads.
You can make the hp with good flow and the correct cam for the job.
call Keith and see what he recommends.





Dwight

[Pman1961]

I do have another question. If I modify the early block by drilling, tapping and installing the spider for the lifters will the later model roller lifters work in the early block?

[vector1]

no. the tie bars will interefer with the block, reason for the spider and dogbone setup. just a wag.

[blykins]

Yes they will.

The later model lifters only work with the lifter spider. If you drill and tap the early block for the spider, then it has to use the late model roller lifters. The lifters are the same diameter for both early and late blocks.

Your other option is to skip the spider and use a set of link bar hydraulic roller lifters. You can usually find good deals on link bar lifters....I think if it were me, I'd skip the drilling and tapping on an assembled short block and just throw the linked lifters in there.

[Pman1961]

Okay, sounds like the acquiring of the short block is a done deal. The reason asking about the lifters is to keep costs down. In my mind I have to justify this some how or another. I saw on the Internet were you drill approximatelly 3/8" deep in the lifter galley and then tapped threads. The hole did not go through the block. The oil return holes were temporarily block during the procedure to prevent material from entering the block. This mod was done with the engine in the car. Now a new question and I may need to start a new thread but any one on this forum have a 408 and are happy with their build or would you have done something else as far as combinations goes. In others words dual plane or single plane intake, heads, etc. I'm going to contact and purchase my items from Keith Craft such as cam, heads, etc. Thanks again everyone! Oh by the way. It looks as though I'll have some parts to sell....short block, heads, roller cam, possibly intake & carb.

[blykins]

Not everyone's build will work for you and you will find out shortly that there are myriads of combinations here on Club Cobra. The best advice I can give is since you're going to buy your parts from KC, give him a buzz, tell him what your goals are, and let him match your parts for you. Good luck!

[vector1]

your tie bar lifters from the crate engine should work with the earlier block with a normal base circle cam, you will not need the dogbones and spyder for this.

when you use the hyd lifters made for the dogbones and spyder you have to use a reduced base circle cam.

again, i could be wrong, have before.

i would use the vic jr off the crate engine for your 408 also unless you like the street stoplight to stoplight thing, then the rpm air gap would be the way to go, but kc will help you on the choice here.

before you split the heads and shortblock pm me a price and a seperate price also.

[JustOne]

I have a set of Crane Hi-Rev lifters that I will sell for $300. If you need the cam and push rods (comp) I will do all for $500. This set up has 1200 miles on it, I switched over to a solid roller cam. If I had it to do over, I think I would have left the hydraulic stuff in the motor, but I don't feel like tearing it down again. The hydraulic setup made 545 HP on the dyno and this was in a 69 block.

Justin

[blykins]

Vec,

You don't have to use a small base circle cam with the late model spider/lifter setup. I have never had to use a small base circle cam in a SBF, even with a 3.400" stroke in a 302 block or a 4.100" stroke in a 351W. I only use small base circle stuff in SBC's where you use a long stroke and try to keep the rods out of the cam.

[Pman1961]

My original for sale ad for the motor is in the club cobra general stuff for sale. You can type in search 385hp and it will come up. If I got the amount asked I'd consider selling the whole motor. I also have a TKO500 that I'm replacing with a TKO600 4617. Again, I am looking at buying a short block selling my short block. Buying new heads selling my heads, etc. trying to keep costs down. I'll entertain offers any combination you wish. Short block, short block with heads, short block with heads and cam and so on. I've got a victor jr. style intake and new rpm air gap. I'll only keep one. I know this thread is not an ad to sell parts so pm me if interested. Just to clarify....can you put the later 'roller block' lifters in a earlier 'non-roller' block' using the spider conversion? Seems I've read somewhere that the depth of the lifter bores are different.

[Pman1961]

I just read using the Ford hydraulic roller retro-kit it would be required to use a small base cam to keep the lifters from rising out of the lifter bores. So now sell all my cam components and do the link style lifters, push rods or do the conversion and use a small base circle cam. Once I get the block I'll consult with KC to see what would be best for my application.