general question: heel/toe while downshifting

[CoolCarl]

To start off, I'm not a racecar driver nor have I ever driven a racecar (or a cobra for that matter).

I've read on a few threads about using the heel/toe method while downshifting for a little throttle blip. What is this and furthermore why is this used?

Why would you want to rev the engine during a downshift? 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear are synchro'd right? If so, why bother to do a throttle blip?

Carl

[Mooch]

I started to type an explanation, but Wikipedia is a wonderful thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe

also:

http://www.drivingfast.net/car-contr...e-shifting.htm

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur...eature=related

[CoolCarl]

thanks for the link. I had never heard about this before joining the forums.

I knew about double clutching but have always had syncho'd transmissions so I never really bothered with it.

[Tommy]

Here are a few more words on the subject from an amatuer track day guy. One of the keys to getting around a track as quickly as possible is to approach the limits of traction. That means that during acceleration, braking and turns, you are often very close to the point of having one or more tires break loose. When a tire does break loose, you typically lose some control and your lap time suffers. ... When accelerating down a straight away and approaching a corner, you'll want to delay braking until the last moment and then maximum brake until you are down to the entry speed for the corner. If your speed has to come down a lot, you'll also need to downshift while you're braking so the engine is ready to provide power when the braking ends. If you downshift to a gear where the engine needs to be at 5500 RPM to match the wheel speed you are traveling, but your engine is at 4000 RPM when you release the clutch, the engine will try to abruptly slow down the rear wheels and can cause them to lock up. So, blipping the throttle at the downshift allows you to keep the revs up while you reengage the clutch. It makes the act of downshifting much smoother so the car is easier to handle when you are near the limits of traction. The need to simultaneously operate the brake, clutch and gas pedal is what heel-toe is all about.

[CoolCarl]

Good explanation. I've never raced on a track before so the concept was completely foreign to me.

Would it be safe to assume that the heel/toe method is not needed on the street ever?

Before I went to work today I sat in my car and tried to push the brake and accelerator at the same time (with my right foot). NOT EVEN CLOSE. The gas pedal was a few inches forward of the brake and clutch pedal. My car is a 2005 Audi A4.

[SPF2245]

Coolcarl,
Odds are when the brake is pressed to about 90-100% of movement, the peddles will be almost in a straight line of eachother, then it's a simple roll of the foot. Try is a few hundred times in a large open parking lot and you'll get a hang of it.

[FatBoy]

Originally Posted by CoolCarl

Would it be safe to assume that the heel/toe method is not needed on the street ever?

It is arguable that you won't ever NEED to heel & toe on the road, but it does sound great when done well and will impress your mates and/or passengers.

The "heel & toe" name is, in many cases somewhat of a misnomer. In my experience, which admittedly, isn't as extensive as many of the contributors on here, it is the ball of the right foot on the brake and the side of the foot blipping the throttle. If you look an most driver shoes, they have a reinforced area on the outside of the right shoe for this purpose and it is nowhere near the heel. I suspect you would need a swivel joint in your knee in order to actually use your heel.

Paul

[CoolCarl]

Coolcarl,
Odds are when the brake is pressed to about 90-100% of movement, the peddles will be almost in a straight line of eachother, then it's a simple roll of the foot. Try is a few hundred times in a large open parking lot and you'll get a hang of it.

I'll try this but I can already see the outcome. I'll be cruisin with from friends then want to slyly show off my new skills and end up stalling it.

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

It is arguable that you won't ever NEED to heel & toe on the road, but it does sound great when done well and will impress your mates and/or passengers.

The "heel & toe" name is, in many cases somewhat of a misnomer. In my experience, which admittedly, isn't as extensive as many of the contributors on here, it is the ball of the right foot on the brake and the side of the foot blipping the throttle. If you look an most driver shoes, they have a reinforced area on the outside of the right shoe for this purpose and it is nowhere near the heel. I suspect you would need a swivel joint in your knee in order to actually use your heel.

Paul

This should be ones first thought,but many years ago we did this very thing.Yup,as crazy as it sounds we did it a lot,and got away with it.We did not terrorize any one,our intention was purely for our enjoyment.A lot of our street racing was spur of the moment,meeting an opponent and needing to prove a point.No way would that work today with so much more traffic and the horrible state our roads are in.

[jhv48]

Cause it sounds cool.

[strictlypersonl]

On one of our old race cars, I put an extension on the hanging gas pedal that extended almost directly under the brake pedal. You could put the ball of your foot hard on the center of brake pedal (not boosted) and "rock" your heel down on the throttle. It had the advantage of less leverage on the throttle, so it was easier to control.

[Jamo]

Watch the first few minutes of Grand Prix...

[Mooch]

Originally Posted by CoolCarl

Before I went to work today I sat in my car and tried to push the brake and accelerator at the same time (with my right foot). NOT EVEN CLOSE. The gas pedal was a few inches forward of the brake and clutch pedal. My car is a 2005 Audi A4.

Funny. In my 2009 A3, in order for my pedals to line up to blip the gas, my brake pedal has to be pushed waaaay in - to the point that I'm pretty much stopped. Maybe it is time to look into moving the gas pedal forward...

[CoolCarl]

Yea, thats pretty much the way my A4 is. If I really press the brake pedal down I can press the gas a bit. I haven't tried it while driving yet but I would think I would pretty much be stopped by the time I got to blip the gas.

[pjmoore2003]

I do it About every day in my daily driver - 99 mustang cobra, this way it's more natural. My pedals don't line up well, but it's more about the action of stabbing the break and rolling onto the gas. It's fun to do once you get it smoothly with your particular car. It would be fun to see if there's a difference between the A4 and S4 pedal alignment...

[Tommy]

Originally Posted by CoolCarl

Yea, thats pretty much the way my A4 is. If I really press the brake pedal down I can press the gas a bit. I haven't tried it while driving yet but I would think I would pretty much be stopped by the time I got to blip the gas.

If you approach the upcoming 40 MPH corner at about 120, you'll have a little more time to blip the gas while hard braking without coming to a complete stop. BTW, in some cases there is very little time for braking and downshifting on the track. Learning to manage the brakes, clutch and gas under such circumstances is one of the driver skills people seek when they go to the track. If you're serious about learning heel-toe, that's the best place to learn it safely.

[twobjshelbys]

I became conscious of this and was trying to reach my brake and gas at the same time. The spacing between the clutch and brake is very close - essentially I have the ball of my foot on each, but the gas pedal is beyond the reach of the outer portion of the foot. It would make downshifting into turns a lot better. I'll have to try it some more...

[Doug I]

You also need to spend some time to set the pedal heights so that when you're hard, and I mean hard on the brakes the pedal is ~flush with the gas pedal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSy...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4iQM...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbU4G...eature=related

[CoolCarl]

So I finally tried this with the car running (not moving at all) and it actually works. Of course it really works. I suppose people have been doing it for a long time now.

I really have to mash the brake down to get it flush with the go pedal.

I need some different shoes though. Either that or I need to try it when I'm not wearing my work shoes and not 10 minutes after my shift (restaurant greasy floors etc.)

Doubt I'll try it on the road though. I value my life and car too much to wreck it while messin' around.

[Jamo]

Adjust to the car...not the other way around. Need to use your foot a bit different for each setup. Hell, I learned in a 49 Plymouth flatbed field truck...thankusbetogawd for bigassed RedWings for that app.

Keep practicing...keep some Topsiders in the car.