Fram warning

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by jwd

Years ago I used to race off-shore boats and I've never seen copper fuel lines on any boats I've inspected. Not to say they weren't any. Just never seen them. The big thing on boat inspections were compatible fuel hoses and an approved check valve at the tank. Regardless, use whatever you want. It is common knowledge about the inherent copper lines.

Well, I'm not pulling your leg. Just google 'copper fuel lines yachts' and you'll see that the top of the line stuff does indeed have copper fuel lines.

[jwd]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Well, I'm not pulling your leg. Just google 'copper fuel lines yachts' and you'll see that the top of the line stuff does indeed have copper fuel lines.

I guess you missed this post in that search. http://forums.iboats.com/showthread.php?t=357764 Who the F--k cares. Use whatever you want. NOBODY in the car industry uses copper for fuel lines. Too much time has been wasted on this stupid azz subject. ERA chucky can use whatever he wants. I don't give a flying F--K. Damn, some people are just stupid. What do expect from a "double hooper"?

[ratsnst1]

I see all the smart guys are on here tonight, I have a question,when I do a panic stop, that meaning stopping as fast as you can, my car wants to die, engine stops running, I checked the float bowls, the fuel is at the very bottom of the window in my 850 demon carb, actually below the site glass, I have to shake the crap out of the car to get the fuel to barely show, I think maybe it needs to be at the middle of site window, if any of you guys no of anything can you please let me know.

[OZCOBRA]

It's called a CLUTCH.....Hope those smart fellows can help you out!!

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

It's called a CLUTCH.....Hope those smart fellows can help you out!!

I pull the clutch in all ready. thats just commen sense.

[OZCOBRA]

...NO REALLY!!!!!!
........IT'S CALLED HUMOUR!!!!..
As i said hopefully someone "SMART and not a SMARTARSE" can help!!

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by OZCOBRA

...NO REALLY!!!!!!
........IT'S CALLED HUMOUR!!!!..
As i said hopefully someone "SMART and not a SMARTARSE" can help!!

well I am sure I will figure it out, I just think its a fuel issue when stopping hard.

[RICK LAKE]

ratsnst1 Any change of getting a first name? Calling you RAT just doesn't work for me.
Any way Here's what is happening. You are running along at part throttle. slam on the brakes and clutch pedal at the same time.
You have cut off the air to the motor. The fuel is still begin suck in a little longer. Too much fuel, not enough air, no fire in the hole. In the old days, carb had idle kickers. They worked off vacuum or electric to stop the idle from going below an adjusted rpm when the throttle is closed. They where also used for loads on the motor like AC compressors. In the old days when that thing kicks in the idle goes up 200 rpms because of 20 hp is being used to power this.
Fuel level in the carb, it should be in the middle of the sight glass. If it's a carb with front and rear bowls the problem is the high "G" stop is pulling the fuel away from the jets on the primary side. This causes fuel starvation and kills the motor. There is no 100% fix for this. 1/4 mile racing we had this problem alot with Holley carbs. We raised the float levels as high as we could and rubber tubed the vents to stop gas from going into the motor and washing out the cylinders. It's not pretty but works.
Clutch air gap when engagement of pedal You need a .035-.050" of air gap between disc and pressure plate. Have to remember that when the clutch gets hot, some disc get grippier and will drag down the motor under stop you are doing. You didn't say what kind of control you have for the thrown out bearing and type but the engagement doesn't happen as fast as the brakes locking up. This will also kill the motor. Rearend locks up the tires driveshaft stops spinning clutch is draggiong to release, motor dies.
Any combo of these things above will cause your problem. If this happens offen, make a bracket for an idle soleniod valve that works off vaccuum. This will control the idle under hard braking.
This is one of the reason I went to FI system, computor is alot faster that you or me and controls the motor under high "G" issues without any problems Good luck Making a bracket is not hard, use the 2 front bolts of the carb for a mounting spot. The rest will be adjustments. It's not hard, will take a little time. IMO I would leave the carb alone if the motor is running good and this is the only problem you are having. Rick L.

[ratsnst1]

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

ratsnst1 Any change of getting a first name? Calling you RAT just doesn't work for me.
Any way Here's what is happening. You are running along at part throttle. slam on the brakes and clutch pedal at the same time.
You have cut off the air to the motor. The fuel is still begin suck in a little longer. Too much fuel, not enough air, no fire in the hole. In the old days, carb had idle kickers. They worked off vacuum or electric to stop the idle from going below an adjusted rpm when the throttle is closed. They where also used for loads on the motor like AC compressors. In the old days when that thing kicks in the idle goes up 200 rpms because of 20 hp is being used to power this.
Fuel level in the carb, it should be in the middle of the sight glass. If it's a carb with front and rear bowls the problem is the high "G" stop is pulling the fuel away from the jets on the primary side. This causes fuel starvation and kills the motor. There is no 100% fix for this. 1/4 mile racing we had this problem alot with Holley carbs. We raised the float levels as high as we could and rubber tubed the vents to stop gas from going into the motor and washing out the cylinders. It's not pretty but works.
Clutch air gap when engagement of pedal You need a .035-.050" of air gap between disc and pressure plate. Have to remember that when the clutch gets hot, some disc get grippier and will drag down the motor under stop you are doing. You didn't say what kind of control you have for the thrown out bearing and type but the engagement doesn't happen as fast as the brakes locking up. This will also kill the motor. Rearend locks up the tires driveshaft stops spinning clutch is draggiong to release, motor dies.
Any combo of these things above will cause your problem. If this happens offen, make a bracket for an idle soleniod valve that works off vaccuum. This will control the idle under hard braking.
This is one of the reason I went to FI system, computor is alot faster that you or me and controls the motor under high "G" issues without any problems Good luck Making a bracket is not hard, use the 2 front bolts of the carb for a mounting spot. The rest will be adjustments. It's not hard, will take a little time. IMO I would leave the carb alone if the motor is running good and this is the only problem you are having. Rick L.

How I cam across all this was while I have been adjusting my brakes, not really a big problem but, if I can I would like to fix, what I will do is befor hard braking, I will put car in neutral.and I will raise the fuell level to the middle of site glass. thanks robert.

[CobraEd]

Is it a copper clutch ???


.

[ratsnst1]

what I mean is by putting the car in neutral , I will see if the engine is still wanting to die on me, so that way to rule out the clutch, my throw out bearing is a hydraulic internal unit.thanks robert

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Is it a copper clutch ???

That's pretty funny. But seriously, I've read the "don't use copper fuel lines" posts for years. But it's never supported by any serious facts -- it seems it's just "passed on" the same way the "don't put your battery on a cement floor" story is passed on. The fact that only some of the really old cars, and some British cars, had copper fuel lines could easily be accounted for by the mere cost of the copper. If there was a good reason not to use copper, it would have to be because it either: 1) did something to the fuel, or 2) didn't last and caused a leak. I have occasionally read a thread where someone claimed copper chemically reacted with gasoline to make it poorer; others say that's crap. I've also read where some claim that the heat characteristics of copper tend to vaporize the fuel; again others say that's crap. The "copper lines don't last when jiggled" argument would seem to have merit, maybe; but then why do they sell them at an additional cost and why are there threads advocating their use for oil pressure lines (on this forum as well) -- even saying that they hold up better than other lines? The fact that high-end boats and yachts use them as OEM is undisputed (but you can still find the occasional post even on those threads where somebody says "don't use copper fuel lines"). They even tout their "color coded copper fuel lines." Now, I don't have copper fuel lines and have no intention of putting them in, but just saying they're bad, don't use them, they've weren't used as OEM (nor are gold-plated contacts), and "I've always heard you shouldn't do it" just begs for some supporting facts. Even if they're not sanctioned or approved, you might ask "why?"

[tcrist]

Part of the problem with copper is that it is porous. It will also work harden and crack with age where it is bent.

[ERA Chas]

"No good deed goes unpunished..."

It appears that among the posters here only Tommy uses the Fram filter and appreciated the heads-up. That's all my intent was, to warn users. Maybe some of the 700 views include users too and I hope my evidence is noted by them.

At no time did I get on advocating anybody switch to copper lines. In no way am I defending my use of them.

Several of you have noticed the copper lines and have responded across a range of expressing constructive concern (which I really appreciate) to blasting me for my stupidity.

As I said, that system has been in place for 14 years now and with 3 line changes, I have managed to not make a toasted ERA. When contemplating the pump/filter arrangement, I studied the available line materials. Stainless and mild steel were very difficult as I didn't have pro-level benders to work with. Aluminum was commonly available from Moroso, Jegs and others but I rejected that because I thought it would have the same characteristics that some of you say copper does (work hardening/vibration). Many drag cars use it but I reasoned it was subject to frequent inspections or changes. I rejected braided line for the connection difficulties to the ERA tank 'out' lines.

I went to my local long-established parts house and found the roll of 25' 'Copper Fuel Line' in a box. No warning or cautions about any type of usage.

Jerry-you got me buddy. Yes tape on NPT and flairs. I just was paranoid about leaks or fumes in front of the battery and I guess I didn't make perfect inverted flairs. I will address that. Your point about the strain relief coil is valid. My set up has bulkhead grommets and the tank ends are connected to the tank tubes with 9" GoodYear neoprene fuel lines so I think vibration is not a serious factor in my case. The pump is mounted with a hard rubber sheet damper and I don't think its vibration has caused a problem. Thanks for your comments.

Gator, your comment, which you meant as constructive, begs for more explanation as to how the cause was determined to be copper and what you actually saw. I'm surely interested.

rats,
You've been on here long enough to know to keep the thread subject as at least part of your comment. It's called 'hijack'. Start your own thread questions.

Pat,
Taking the devils advocate position has unfortunately gotten you a bloody nose from our resident thug. I'm only happy when I give you a bloody nose.... Like you, I've never seen or been told any factual reason not to use copper. And I've been sweating the Cobra replica world (with this car) before many guys on here knew what one was.

Then there's jwd,
Your 40 year career does NOT entitle you to say things like this to any one on here:

"ERA chucky can use whatever he wants. I don't give a flying F--K. Damn, some people are just stupid."

"Do it right or don't do it"

"Only a fool would use one for a fuel line."

"I seriously doubt that anyone who knows anything about cars would argue this point."

"Too much time has been wasted on this stupid azz subject. "

-So after your first salvo you should have just disappeared. We didn't need your imagined expertise delivered with hammer blows when no one else was talking tough. You obviously never read Brent's "Be nice" thread. Maybe Jamo could give you a refresher link?

I see you're still the same hammerhead thug you were last year when you attempted to beat me up in another thread. I sent you a clear message then but I'll repeat it LOUDER this time. Put me on your ignore list. Don't get into any thread I start. Stop talking-down to and scolding guys like we're all in short pants. You're dumber than a rockpile and you're belligerence adds no credibility to what you say. We can get a fifth-grader to explain that to you. Don't reply-start your own 'hate' thread.

Guys, I truly appreciate the well-meaning advice and welcome further real evidence and discussion. I'm really curious-how many guys use the HPGC-1?

I can always learn more-I'm not a know-it-all.

[joyridin']

I've had a few cool cans over the years on cars with a carb. Look inside...they all had copper lines. Same with some of the oil coolers and trans coolers. All aftermarket units admittedly, but the factory wouldn't spend the extra money on a copper unit anyhow.

I guess if you are worried about the copper lines, you should be worried about the copper wires running right next to it. I would hate to see those corrode and cause an electrical fire. I would assume they would fail a lot faster since the wires are so small.

[olddog]

I'm no expert of fuel lines, but from my work experiance, stainless steel tubing is as bad at cracking as copper. Stainless does not hold up around chlorine, which is in city water.

[tcrist]

Deleted, It does not matter anyway.

[cdnus]

ERA Chas

BRAVO!!!!!

[Fordzilla]

+1 more for ERA Chas!

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Fordzilla

+1 more for ERA Chas!

I taught Chas. everything he knows.