Top Loader to TKO

[Excaliber]

Well my Top Loader was showing it's age and in need of some serious work, plus I didn't like the extreme high first gear ratio that comes with a close ratio. BUT, I don't like the extreme LOW first gear ratio and extreme .6 over drive that to often comes with a T-5 either! What to do?

TKO-600, road race specs, was my answer. The TKO-RR has a .82 overdrive so it's not SO high. And a decent first gear ratio that isn't TO low.

Depending on your cam profile, expected crusie mph/rpm range, rear gear ratio, size of tires you might want to consider a .6 over drive. I suspect for most folks the .8 really is the best overall ratio.

Piece of cake changing out the Top Loader for the TKO. I used the existing top loader trans mount, tranferred to the TKO, and it LOOKS like the exisiting speedo gear will work as well. I've got the back tires jacked up off the ground and have been going through the gears to break in the trans, check out the speedo, clutch action, etc. Looks good.

New clutch and pressure plate, to fit the new trans, but you want a new clutch and pressure plate regardless of what you had with a new trans anyway. Also new throw out bearing and clutch release arm. In my case I drilled out the end of the clutch release arm to accept my existing slave cylinder to throw out arm linkage. Everything lines up good, no need to change any locations or angles here.

[Excaliber]

It's hard to say if you will have to change or modify the trans mount frame, in my case I did have to fabricate a new mount. Fairly easy to do. My Top Loader was the very long tail shaft version which resulted in a very short drive shaft! So in my case I had to get my old drive shaft lengthened. I've talked to some folks that were able to use their existing drive shaft, just change out the front yoke that goes into the trans. It cost about $80 to modify the drive shaft, but I also installed new U-joints for another $50 or so.

You have TWO choices when it comes to mounting the trans on the bell housing. You can go with a "short input shaft" style OR use a 3/4" adaptor plate between the trans and the bell housing. I don't like adaptor plates myself and went with a short input shaft setup. BUT, that does move the trans shifter location forward, about 3/4" which means you have to modify the trans tunnel shifter hole. In retrospect, I could see going with an adaptor plate.

The new shifter also sits up HIGHER than the old one did. It will stick out above the tran tunnel hole. I plan to use a "spacer ring" of some kind that will raise the height of the shifter boot above the tunnel. For now I'll be using a short stock TKO shifter until I can get my exisiting Top Loader shifter modified to fit.

From this:


To this:


Special thanks to B2Motorsports, our own Brent (Blykins), for the parts and expertise to make this a simple installation!! I also went with a Steeda Tri Ax after market shifter to replace the stock TKO unit. When I closely compared the two, on the bench, it was readily apparent why the Steeda is superior. You would really have to screw up to miss that third gear shift with the Steeda, you might find yourself in 5th with the stock unit!

[patrickt]

Nice. Remember, I told you to use the adaptor between the trans and bellhousing?

[Excaliber]

Yeah, but I really don't like adaptor plates. OK, I could see it in this case, but I don't have a problem modifying the shifter hole either, so....

[ERA Chas]

Nice job Ernie and good shout-out for Brent. He puts up with all our BS questions and glad he finally sold something.

Now all you need is an "ERA" badge for the shift knob....

[RodKnock]

Ernie, Kirkham makes a shifter for the TKO that looks original. Also, will you replace the stock shifting mechanism for something like a Tri-Ax? I wish I had done that when I put mine together.

EDIT: Oops. I actually read the bottom below the pic.

[Excaliber]

The Tri Ax may have been an after thought in the thread but it was top priority from the get go. The only question was: Which one?

First drive impressions:
Whoa!!! So this is what you guys been dealing with when it comes to a low first gear ratio? How the heck do you take off without breaking loose the tires? It seems all but impossible. Mabye it's that fierce clutch I got? Puck's on both sides, no chatter, it just hooks, the tires chirp and the car goes, done. Your across the intersection before you can blink. Mind you, I'm still running the 10" SLICKS right now, I haven't put on the street tires yet, which will likely be a complete joke when it comes to traction.

Feels really good, a totally new experience, yikes, it's scary like I never owned one before. I used to do 65 mph in first and STILL had trouble taking off without chirping the tires! Plenty work left to do before I can go for a cruise, just a quick around the block, lay some rubber, watch the drive shaft spin (that was interesting...).

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Plenty work left to do before I can go for a cruise...

Yeah-get the badge...

[mdross1]

I changed out my completely rebuilt toploader for a TKO just to get the better 1st gear and OD.What little highway driving I do is pure pleasure now.The first gear out of the hole is some kind of nice as well with the big block doing it's thing.

[Dangerous Doug]

Excaliber: I found my TKO-600 shifter mount was off-center on the tunnel. To remedy this, I purchased a couple of 1" hardened steel chrome offsets and longer mounting bolts with nuts and washers. I'll be putting this assembly back together in the next night or so, so if you want to see a picture let me know. This centers the shifter in my tunnel.

DD

[Excaliber]

I know what you mean Doug, I have yet to address the final solution for the shifter handle. I'm using the stock short one until I either buy or have my existing original top loader shifter modified.

I was concerned that stock very short shifter might make shifting a bit hard, but surprisingly, the trans shifts very smooth with the short throw.

What I like best is that 2nd gear works really well in slow moving around town traffic. My top loader was so high geared it was a bit of a problem in around town low speed traffic.

[tkb289]

Ernie,

I must have missed this tread when you first posted, glad it popped back up to the top.

I have a few questions:

The TKO 600 RR that you installed, does that have the same ratios as the gearbox listed in the ERA FIA manual? Does the RR designation refer to the 0.82 OD unit?

TREMEC 600

1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th , 5th
2.87, 1.89, 1.28, 1:1, 0.82:1

What rear axle ratio are you running? 3.54 or 3.31 or ???

Compared to the close ratio with that high first gear ratio that you had, how do you like the setup you are running now?

Thanks!

- Tim

[badrich]

Tim: I changed over to a Tremec 600RR and used Modern Driveline's kit. Check out their web site and it will give you all the specs. And I am so happy I decided to use their recommended Kevlar clutch. No slip and smooth as deer guts on a glass doornob. Rich

[Excaliber]

As near as I can tell the only difference between a TKO-RR and a regular TKO is in fact the over drive ratio. RR being a .8 and the regular being a .6. Maybe the TKO-RR is built slightly different inside? Heavier "whatever's" in there? I don't know, I just wanted the .8 for my 3:31 rear gear. I KNOW my cam profile and the way my engine feels if it drops below 2000 rpm, it aint pretty. The .6 OD would have me going well above most of the posted speed limits around here to stay above 2000 rpm.

My primary reason for switching was because I felt like I needed to do a major overhaul on my top loader. The TP works great, in fact I recently put in new synchro's and a second gear synchro cluster. But, it's got some hard miles on it over all, so... Time for a change I guess.

The car feels completely different with the new ratio's, I'm slowly getting used to it. The accelleration is certainly more "brisk" in first gear, all though, short lived, I need to shift way sooner than before! The new puck on both sides RAM clutch is the most agressive I've ever run. Is that a Kevlar thingy or a ceramic thingy or what? At first it was go or no go, in or out, launch and burn rubber or stay home. I've got a hundred miles or so on it now, mostly stop and go to break it in and it is MUCH more user friendly now. I can control the engagement quite nicely with no chatter or complaining.

I would NEVER consider being in a parade before with the old top loader and the high first gear. The car did NOT like to "creep", I had to use the clutch a LOT in heavy traffic, man that did get old. The new lower ratios of the TKO are much more friendly in a heavy traffic environment, I'd consider a parade now.

I do miss the close ratio of the top three gears on the top loader when I'm "at speed" though. Downshifting in particular was really sweet with the close ratio, very little jerk or harshness, real easy to heel and toe and hit that rpm "just right". The wider spread on the TKO is a new ball game, you HAVE to catch that rpm "just right" on a downshift or you WILL have a harsh engagement. I could see locking up the rear and spinning the car out if you screw up a high rpm down shift with the TKO. That was pretty hard to screw up with the close ratio top loader.

I miss crusing along in fourth, about 65 mph on the freeway and then dropping it into SECOND gear and just blasting away! Yeah, you can make a strong case for the close ratio, it has it's place. Really sweet on a road course.

[blykins]

The only difference between the two TKO 600's is just the overdrive ratio. I sell a lot of the .82 ratios because most of my customers either have high rearend ratios, or fussy engines.

Ernie, that disc is actually a sintered iron/sintered iron disc. It is in fact very aggressive....but rated for 650hp, which is what was needed to support a big FE and a set of slicks.

The smaller 11" clutch size helps keep the chatter down, plus a 2500 lb car doesn't hurt either.

[Excaliber]

You know I was also surprised at the clutch pedal leg effort required, it's about the same as I had before. Not bad at all. I THOUGHT because I was going with such a "mean clutch" there would be high clutch release effort required. But it's smooth like butter....

Ya done good Blykins, you really nailed the specs I needed for my setup.

[blykins]

RAM uses a real sticky disc coupled with a lower static pressure on the pressure plate. That's why the pedal effort isn't bad.

Without going to a twin disc McLeod setup, that's about as good as you can get to handle your specific application without going to some funky combos....like paddle style non sprung discs, etc.

Glad you're happy.

[dcdoug]

This question is actually related to my other post, but since Ernie and Brent know TKO's quite well....do you think its possible to attach a hose to the vent on the TKO and vent it up to the oil puke tank?

[blykins]

Doug, I think you and I have already chewed on this a bit.

The vent is not a pipe fitting, so the top cover would need to be removed and the existing fitting would have to be cut off and a new one welded into place, or somehow affixed to the cover.

I honestly don't see any reason to do this modification at all, unless it's just an aesthetic thing.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by blykins

Doug, I think you and I have already chewed on this a bit.

The vent is not a pipe fitting, so the top cover would need to be removed and the existing fitting would have to be cut off and a new one welded into place, or somehow affixed to the cover.

I honestly don't see any reason to do this modification at all, unless it's just an aesthetic thing.

Oh, I agree there's not really a reason to do this, I am just interested in installing an oil puke tank and getting it hooked up properly and this is the only piece that has me a bit stymied. I will go back to my other post. Sorry for the short threadjack.