TKO 600 Grinding. - Page 3

blykins · #41 (**permalink**) 11-02-2010, 03:40 PM

If you sit with the clutch pushed in and give the transmission time enough to stop turning, it still grinds?

Try this....

When you're sitting there with the engine running and you want to go into reverse, go into 5th gear first, then down into reverse and see what happens.

Excaliber · #42 (**permalink**) 11-02-2010, 03:51 PM

Virtually ALL standard transmission cars will grind in reverse if you shift there without hesitating after you put the clutch in. I shift into 4th first, THEN into reverse, it never grinds that way. Of course the reason is, reverse doesn't utilize synchro's like the forward gears do.

Old VW, Austin Healeys, MG's and many many other cars grind in first (and reverse) for the same reason, no synchro's on that gear. You have to put the clutch in and WAIT for the trans gears to stop spinning if you don't want the grind.

jhv48 · #43 (**permalink**) 11-02-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blykins

If you sit with the clutch pushed in and give the transmission time enough to stop turning, it still grinds?

Try this....

When you're sitting there with the engine running and you want to go into reverse, go into 5th gear first, then down into reverse and see what happens.

First thing we tried. Doesn't matter how long you wait or how many gears you engage first before finding reverse. Sometimes it will grind like there is no slowing down of rotation, sometimes it slips smoothly into reverse gear. No rhyme or reason, but heat seems to help the situation.

Excaliber · #44 (**permalink**) 11-02-2010, 07:47 PM

Brent, of course 5th would seem to be the ideal gear before choosing reverse, but I've found that to often 5th may be hard to shift into while sitting. It depends on where the gears have to come to rest. As opposed to 4th, which WILL go in smooth every time. 4th does seem a little ackward at first, but I don't even think about it anymore. 4th, then reverse, it's almost natural, because I don't want to wait for the gears to stop turning (I hate to wait).

Jim (jhv) if it grinds in reverse at ANY time AFTER you either: 1. waited (long enough) for the gears to stop spinning OR 2. shifted into 4th or 5th to stop them from spinning then there is only one other possible cause; The clutch and/or pilot bearing are not fully releasing the trans input shaft and the gears are still turning.

The only reason you don't sense the clutch and/or pilot bearing not fully releasing when you shift into 1st or any other gear is because of the synchromesh on those gears. They will "mask" the slight turning of the gears, where reverse won't.

Does not matter if it's only occasionally, the fact remains, "occasionally" the clutch and/or pilot bearing are not releasing. No way is this a fault of the transmission itself, by the way...

blykins · #45 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 02:43 AM

Yep, exactly.

If you shove the clutch in and give the transmission enough time to stop turning, then go to reverse.....if it still grinds it simply means the transmission can't stop turning.

Wild Card 289 · #46 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 04:54 AM

My 3000 mile TKO600 5 speed does the same. Sometimes its good, sometimes it grinds. Hot and cold. Tried all the pre-selecting of forward gears, and never know what I will get. The fact that it sometimes selects reverse smoothly makes it all the more confusing. I´ve tried pumping the clutch several times to see to let the release bearing get a different take on the clutch fingers, but with no success either.
And it often makes you look like you can´t operate a stick shift just when you least need it!

mdross1 · #47 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 06:23 AM

My TKO went through the same headache for a while,it was the clutch adjustment that took care of it.Every once in a while needed to shift into first then reverse to prevent a grind.99% of the time it's Okay.

jhv48 · #48 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Card 289

My 3000 mile TKO600 5 speed does the same. Sometimes its good, sometimes it grinds. Hot and cold. Tried all the pre-selecting of forward gears, and never know what I will get. The fact that it sometimes selects reverse smoothly makes it all the more confusing. I´ve tried pumping the clutch several times to see to let the release bearing get a different take on the clutch fingers, but with no success either.
And it often makes you look like you can´t operate a stick shift just when you least need it!

That's mine in a nutshell.

Drove it 60 miles to the installer to pull the trans for a fourth time. Got there, he jumps in the car and slips the trans smoothly into reverse. Makes me look like an idiot. Over and over he slips it in and out of reverse without a sign of a grind. I looked at him and said f--k it! I'll bring it back when something breaks!

Excaliber · #49 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 09:34 AM

Jim, do you know if your running a bronze pilot bushing? That and/or the clutch plate not fully releasing is what this boils down to. Something is causing drag on the input shaft of the trans. I suspect a bearing would tolerate misalignment of the bell housing more than a bushing would.

What other causes might come into play when the clutch disc does not always fully disengage? Warped disc? Insuffcient tavel with the master cylinder? Possible air bubble in the master/slave cylinders not allowing for enough travel of the throw out bearing? Not getting a full stroke on the master cylinder because of occasional internal leakage of the hydraulic pressure from the master or slave at times? I wonder if slowly vs fast engagement of the clutch pedal may be a factor in regards to internal leaking of hydraulic pressure? Pumping the clutch pedal is a good diagnostic procedure, assuming enough "time" is given to allow the gears to stop following said pumping action. Slight misalignment of the bell housing causing the pilot bushing to "rub" sideways on the input shaft? I would rule out the pressure plate (cover plate) itself, mostly because I can't think of a way the levers and springs would fail to release consistently. How about the throw out bearing release arm "pivoting" or moving at an angle at certain times and thus not giving full travel to the throw out bearing?

As has been noted, correct clutch adjustment, which allows for a FULL stroke of the slave cylinder is step #1. If full stroke only allows for a minimum of pressure plate disengagement that would certainly be a problem. "Almost releasing" would account for sometimes it grinds and sometimes it doesn't. A full stroke must be verified.

Looking for repairs to the trans itself is a red herring (related, but misleading, not the real cause), I do believe. The simple fact is this could (and has) happened to top loaders, T5's, GM trans, any manual trans on the market. In that regard there is nothing special about a TKO.

Excaliber · #50 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 11:29 AM

From the Google, this might say it better than my lame attempt:

Quote:

RELEASE PROBLEMS

If the clutch does not release completely when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, the disc will continue to turn the input shaft. This may prevent the driver from shifting the transmission from neutral into gear, cause grinding when the gears are changed, or cause the engine to stall when coming to a stop.
A clutch that won't release may have a misadjusted linkage, a broken or stretched release cable, a leaky or defective slave or master clutch cylinder, air in the hydraulic line or cylinders, corroded, damaged or improperly lubricated input shaft splines, a worn pilot bearing/bushing, a worn bearing retainer, bent or worn release fork or pivot ball, bent clutch drive straps, bent or distorted clutch disc, a clutch disc that was installed backwards, or mismatched clutch components (if the clutch was just replaced).
Other things that can cause the clutch to drag or not release include heavy gear oil in the transmission that's too thick for cold weather, defective or worn clutch pedal bushings or brackets, or flexing in the firewall or any release component attachment point.

jhv48 · #51 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 01:55 PM

Clutch mechanism has been checked out from one end to the other. It doesn't drag, nothing is warped or damaged. The clutch is completely disengaged when the trans is grinding away. Verified by puting the car on the rack, (engine running) with one guy in the driver's seat and one under the car watching the clutch disengage. With the pedal fully depressed, the rear wheels do not turn, and can be turned by hand in the opposite direction.

Excaliber · #52 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 02:42 PM

Well that only leaves one other possible variable, assuming all the linkage, pivot points, etc. are 100% good to go.

The pilot bushing is dragging on the tip of the input shaft. Think about it, if you feel a grinding into any gear it means the trans gears are still turning. That is the only way grinding could possibly occur. There are two ways to get the trans gears to turn. Roll the rear wheels (or drive shaft) or have the flwheel assembly turning (motor is running).

Because TKO use a very light weight oil (like ATF) and because they have very little internal friction (compared to a top loader) the slighest drag could cause the gears to keep turning.

jhv48 · #53 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 02:52 PM

I agree. I have another mechanic who has looked at it and he says the same thing. Has to be the bushing. He is suggesting a bearing instead of a bushing next time.

Excaliber · #54 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 02:58 PM

Boy am I glad I decided to pass on the bushing and run my old bearing. Or I might be right there with some of you guys having trouble.

Brent, make a note!

Outwest34au · #55 (**permalink**) 11-03-2010, 06:43 PM

"damaged or improperly lubricated input shaft splines, "

The bushing must be pre-treated before installation. Sintered bronze ( if thats what you call oillite) bushings have porous construction that allow the ingress and containment of lubricant. Before use it would be soaked in a small pot of motor oil for 24 hrs or so, then it's a good idea to squeeze oil through it. If you need to install a new one and don't have time to wait, sit one end of the bush on your thumb, fill it with oil, then squeeze the other end of the bush with your other thumb. This will hydraulic the oil through the bushing pores, you will see it sweat oil from the outside of the bush.

Old mate taught me to never ever use grease on the input spline, this can cause the disc to not slide free. We always used graphite powder or similar, but with all this new fandangled modern stuff around I have been using a very thin smear of Never Seize on the input shafts last few years.

Both these things have worked for me the last 30 years.

Good luck with it.

67FEfastback · #56 (**permalink**) 11-04-2010, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Virtually ALL standard transmission cars will grind in reverse if you shift there without hesitating after you put the clutch in. I shift into 4th first, THEN into reverse, it never grinds that way. Of course the reason is, reverse doesn't utilize synchro's like the forward gears do.
...

Thanks, that helps me.

Now does someone know where I can get a proper connector for the TKO neutral safety start pins? The ones that I have on there, usually act up after 3-4 months, especially when the engine gets hot. I then have to pop the hood and jumper the pins on the harness.

It looks like it should have a round connector with two pin push-on harness, with a beveled plastic ridge to snap on to the transmission.

iwantacobra427 · #57 (**permalink**) 11-13-2010, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhv48

That's mine in a nutshell.

Drove it 60 miles to the installer to pull the trans for a fourth time. Got there, he jumps in the car and slips the trans smoothly into reverse. Makes me look like an idiot. Over and over he slips it in and out of reverse without a sign of a grind. I looked at him and said f--k it! I'll bring it back when something breaks!

Try shifting into third or second before shifting into reverse. If that doesn't help and you're running a hydraulic clutch.. I'd trying bleeding it..

jhv48 · #58 (**permalink**) 02-07-2011, 02:10 PM

Well, here is the latest in the transmission saga.

The grinding in reverse steadily has gotten worse (no matter how many forward gears you engage before shifting into reverse or how long you wait) and putting the trans in any forward gear at a stop requires real muscle (no grinding, just a firm hard push to engage). Trans shifts beautifully either up or down once moving. It also shifts effortlessly when the engine is off and the clutch is disengaged.

The car is at a different shop having the trans removed once again.

I am going to use a pilot bearing this time instead of a bushing and see if there is any improvement.

Will let you know after the parts are removed if there is any obvious signs of wear.

Gaz64 · #59 (**permalink**) 02-07-2011, 02:30 PM

Jim,

Can I assume if while leaning on the shifter and you turn the engine off, the box drops into gear as the engine stops?

If that is the case, you most likely have a dragging clutch or a dragging spigot bearing.

Either way the input shaft is not coming to rest as easily as it should.

mkassab · #60 (**permalink**) 02-08-2011, 05:25 AM

I agree.... the clutch is most likely dragging. I had the same issue.

Once I put a new Wilwood slave cylinder on the clutch arm and made adjustments to the pedal (to get full travel, all my issues went away). My prior clutch arm movement was about 5/8". I now have over 1" arm travel.

Measure your clutch arm travel from rest to full clutch pedal depression.

Mark