Evans WATERLESS Coolant

[Excaliber]

"Insurance", that is the primary benefit I see here. Less pressure, higher capacity in the event of some cooling related problem. I may never be able to detect any substantial change from a water based system. As I now live in a freeze area, I would have to drain the water and run antifreeze come winter, with this I can run year around.

If you recall, in my "famous build thread" I used Marvel Mystery Oil to install the pistons/rings in the block. Boy did THAT meet with high drama as the debate raged on about what a screw up that was!! No stranger to controversy here, like I said, I'm going in!!! By the way, the Marvel Mystery Oil instead of engine to install the pistons worked out great, I'll never use oil to install pistons again.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

As I now live in a freeze area, I would have to drain the water and run antifreeze come winter, with this I can run year around.

Ernie, I've got to call "BS" on that one. It takes less than five minutes to drain two gallons of water out of your petcock while you add straight conventional green at the tank. Take it for a short drive, and you're good for the winter.

[vector1]

when i get this other cast iron block engine built i'll use the evans again. i guess cause i already have it and it was used in the car previously. the other car has the water/antifreeze stuff, i could care less either way.

other then the heat absorbtion rate the evans has quite a few benefits.

there's a thinner race coolant, and the reg. stuff btw.

[Excaliber]

I'm running iron heads, which are not as likley to warp or be a problem with a catastrophic over heating issue. But if I was running alloy heads,,, I would very seriously consider running Evan's just for that reason alone.

[Excaliber]

Coming full circle with this thread, it originated as a result of this thread:

http://clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105684

Undy has a VERY small leak leaving a milky shake like mix of oil and antifreeze ONLY in the valve cover. No apparent oil contamination. Extraordinary steps have been taken to find the leak, no luck, it remains a mystery.

Theory, or question:
With Evans coolant and low or no pressure is it possible there would not be a detectable leak in Undy's cooling system? Something (very small) is pushing water out of somewhere and into the engine area. I theorize that "something" is based on the coolant system working under pressure, 12 to 15 psi would be a normal range, possibly more. NO pressure, no leak, neither of these threads would exist (enter the Twilight Zone....).

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Olddog, I suspect it takes very little over pressure from steam or air or whatever to raise the cooling system pressure beyond the cap rating and start pushing water out. Evans Coolant, no pressure!

I'm not clear on what you meant here, and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth (fingers as the case may be).

We purposely raise the pressure in a radiator system to increase the boiling point of the water/glycol.

Evans Coolant would run at the same pressure as water, if you did not change the cap. They are choosing to run at a lower pressure by modifying the radiator cap, because the boiling point is higher.

A radiator cap is a pressure relief valve. As the coolant expands from the temperature increase the pressure must rise until it pushes against the spring in the cap hard enough to relieve.

You get a better heat transfer in a heat exchanger at higher pressure. I'm not so sure that just because you can run with no pressure that it is a must do or even the best thing to do.

[olddog]

When you read through the Q&A on why this stuff is so great, they put some very good point in it. I'm open minded on it. They did go over board trying to convince you on how bad water/glycol is. They also went all the way to snake oil salesman on the cooling fan. They start by listing huge diesel engines and top it off with a fan using 52 Hp. I specified a multi stage turban blower pushing 3 psi and 1800 CFM of air with only 30 Hp. Let's get real here a 30 amp fan at 14 volts is only about 1/2 hp.

Face it, if this allowed us to run hotter, back off the fan usage and save so much fuel, the auto makers would be jumping all over this. I'm sure there is some validity, but I doubt the fuel economy is going to pay big dividends.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I'm running iron heads, which are not as likley to warp or be a problem with a catastrophic over heating issue.

I can't understand this sudden phobia on the part of you and Ronbo (in Undy's thread) to protect against engine/head nuclear meltdown. Virtually NO ONE here has posted about overheating damage, no matter the geographic location. No scaldings, warpings, steam clouds, burst hoses or melted parts reported-for years! This wasn't needed in '66 when they ran SO's for 24 hours at LeMans-and during the whole race history of small block and FE development and success. There is just no need to climb out on a limb that NO ONE sees as necessary.

The closest in memory was Elmarichi's excellent thread about running hot (in 110deg. Texas) and developing the whole Taurus fan change which was completely effective. At that-he damaged no engine parts or was in personal peril. And many TX and AZ guys did that because it cured a problem that restricted their driving on bad heat days-not because they melted parts. Even Vector seems indifferent about Evans and is using it simply because his car came with it and he has it on hand already. Not because he has a drastic heat need to remedy.

It's your money and your motor so I'll shut up now.

[olddog]

Another thing I took issue with was their method of raising the fan temp control points. They want you to strap a resistor onto your sending unit, so you don't have to modify the ECU. Sure that will raise the temp that the fan comes on and off, but it also lies to the ECU on what the engine temp is. The fuel and timing maps take engine temp into account. It also will most likely make your gauge read lower than actual. This could get you into trouble on some newer cars and they are happy to lead you right over that cliff to make a sale. That whole issue bothered me a bit.

[patrickt]

What happens if you accidentally leave a couple or three ounces of water in your block and then put it in the Evans?

[Excaliber]

Good points, well taken. I have no ECU to worry about in my case, and like Olddog, I just blew off the whole reference to horse power saved via the cooling fan setting. Still, if your running an 18 wheeler, or even a high velocity fan clutch, that could be a good point. Or a diesel, which may get more benefit from higher engine temps than a gas engine would.

Olddog, my point about "water expansion" was that even a little "steam" from whatever source, can quickly raise the pressure and force water out of the system. There's more to that than just the water itself expanding. In fact I recently had a very very small head gasket leak from the combustion chamber into a water jacket that was doing just that! Blowing my water out like crazy, it was hell to figure out what was going on. The circumstances were such, complex to go into here, that I believe Evans would have been a good call during that mini crisis. Either way, I eventually did replace the head gasket and engine temps got pretty high at one point (thankful for those iron heads ). Often you can indeed overheat your engine to fairly high numbers without significant damage, sometimes you can't. Feeling lucky?

I have personal knowledge of folks, over the years, who have warped alloy heads due to overheating (it's actually quite common), and personal knowledge of folks who have been burned by pressurized systems upon sudden release of said pressure. While that may not be commonly reported among the Cobra clan, it is never the less, a valid concern. For your daily driver, your diesel truck or your Cobra.

I plan to increase my fan setpoint to a higher temp as well as possibly increase my t-stat to a higher temp. I want to try running a higher temp in general to see the results. I'm willing to take that risk, which I think is minimal.

At this point, other than the expense (no big deal to me) and the labor (I love doing this kind of stuff) I don't see a downside here.

As I mentioned earlier, I seriously wonder if Undy would have even noticed he had a problem or even had a problem at all, had he been running Evans and a low pressure cap. We hear of PLENTY folks on here with porous alloy engine parts. Those "leaks" may not be an issue at low or zero pressure. That potential intake or other gasket leak may never show up with low or zero pressure. Ya just might be protected and not even know it, in which case you would be saying, "I don't see any difference", when you don't even know there is!

[Excaliber]

Pat, reference what happens if you don't get out all the old anti or water. I'm not sure... They seem to recommend about a 3% mix is acceptable, I think thats around a 1/10th of a quart or so?

I THINK why they don't want WATER in with it is because your potentially running higher engine temps with lower pressure and the water WILL in that case turn to steam and be a problem. Long term, it may hinder the ability (degrade) the Evans. Mixing a little antifreeze may prevent the steam pocket problem, but it will eventually degrade the Evans as well. Either way, it's a contaiminent within the cooling system.

[olddog]

In most cases a leak will leak at all pressures. Zero pressure would be much slower, but the gravity of the water alone would likely put a nice sized puddle in the engine over the long winter slumber.

The question is: How does the Evans coolant mix with oil? The water milk shake is well known and easy to recognize.

They make a fair amount of noise about the water, and their willing to mislead you on the fan to sell it to you. I have to say I think getting all the water out is pretty important. I would suggest an old air conditioning man pull a vacuum on it, but it would collapse the radiator, pop the water pump seal, and suck some gaskets out of place with my luck. Draining it hot and circulating hot air through it might dry it out quickly. Blowing dehumidified air through it at room temp for a couple days should get it dry as a bone.

[Excaliber]

Being as Evans is propylene glycol with some additives, etc. I would think the mix would be very similair to a water/anti mix with oil. White, milky, sweet taste (hmm, tasty as Undy might say).

While antifreeze is poisonous Evans is not, somehow they have inhibited the bodys (well, mice bodies at least) to uptake the bad parts of the chemical. All though it still contains a warning similiar to antifreeze due to lack of human testing, "Don't take internally", etc.

I'll mix up a batch, oil and Evans, heat it up and see what I get (hmm, tasty milk shake).

[olddog]

A compression leak into the coolant, would likely be the exact same thing regardless what liquid is used.

That did pop another question into my head. What happens when Evans gets sucked into a cylinder. Antifreeze is mostly Etheline glycol and believe it or not its flash point is not super far above its boiling point and it does have an autoignition temp too. Most things made from hydrocarbons do. The 50/50 mix with water helps prevent this. I suspect the Evans is hydrocarbon based and it is not mixed with water.

[olddog]

Not sure if the milk shake is from the heat or the mixing action of a pumping engine. You might have to whip it with a mixer.

[Excaliber]

I'll whip it, whip it good...

Actually Evans could be considered a fire hazard when exposed to open flame, so you bring up a good point. While it WAS recommended for airplanes (lowering boiling point of water due to altitude, Evans being a good thing) the Feds rejected approval based on the potential fire hazard... As in a crash I would guess.

If it gets into the cylinder will it make more power?

What happened with my head gasket leak is I would loose SOME water IF I accellerated hard, the water temp would go up (water lost), but stabilize at higher than normal temp. If I drove real careful, I could get back home. Then, one day, I blew a hose from the high pressure, temp shot through the roof, had to shut it down right there and walk. With low pressure, that hose might not have blown! Hose clamp was loose, my bad,,,

[vector1]

when i ran the evans in the cobra, i still used a pressurized cap. the cap being on the pressure side if left open or vented to atmosphere would lose coolant. something to think about.

[Excaliber]

Thats what I suspected would happen, as well as not be able to draw coolant back in from the overflow tank. I plan to run as low a pressure cap as I can find, but not zero pressure. Well maybe even zero pressure to test that out at some point.

vector, any other thoughts or observations on using it?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

I can't understand this sudden phobia on the part of you and Ronbo (in Undy's thread) to protect against engine/head nuclear meltdown. Virtually NO ONE here has posted about overheating damage, no matter the geographic location. No scaldings, warpings, steam clouds, burst hoses or melted parts reported-for years! This wasn't needed in '66 when they ran SO's for 24 hours at LeMans-and during the whole race history of small block and FE development and success. There is just no need to climb out on a limb that NO ONE sees as necessary.

The closest in memory was Elmarichi's excellent thread about running hot (in 110deg. Texas) and developing the whole Taurus fan change which was completely effective. At that-he damaged no engine parts or was in personal peril. And many TX and AZ guys did that because it cured a problem that restricted their driving on bad heat days-not because they melted parts. Even Vector seems indifferent about Evans and is using it simply because his car came with it and he has it on hand already. Not because he has a drastic heat need to remedy.

It's your money and your motor so I'll shut up now.

I'm with Chas on this one. I get that "Emperor's New Clothes" feeling.

If you want to dissipate heat faster, then why not get an aluminum block.