Evans WATERLESS Coolant

[Excaliber]

Well, I just ordered five gallons of "Evans Waterless Coolant", including shipping costs, it was about $180. I will be using NPG+, there is also regular NPG and NPG-R (racing). NGP+ will flow better in older copper tube type radiators and has a higher heat exchange rate as well.

NPG is:
non-aqueous propylene glycol

Here's a link to a FAQ that covers the basics:
http://www.evanscooling.com/frequently-asked-questions/

I think my cooling system holds 3 to 4 gallons, more like 4 so I have a little extra for future topping off, some spillage and goofing around as may be required.

Here's a link to instructions for the conversion:
http://www.hrpworld.com/client_image...ader/683_4.pdf

This stuff is NOT COMPATIBLE at all with any existing antifreeze coolant or water in the system. It is critical the system get's flushed and drained thoroughly. In the event you need to ADD coolant because of a problem on the highway (blew a hose or whatever) you should use ANTIFREEZE (not water) for a temporary fix. Then you will need to completly drain and refill when you get home.

Now for RACING applications the instructions seem quite complex:
NO thermostat should be used, "weep hole" in the water pump should be plugged (if not, it could draw air into the system), by-pass hose should be plugged and additional complex steps (drill, tap, install new devices, hoses, etc) may be required. I'm thinking the intent here is to maximize the cooling system efficiency, which may or may not need these "enhancements".

"Daily Driver" installation:
Simply "flush, drain" and install Evans coolant without any additional steps. I think I will start with the "Daily Driver" installation technique because it's very easy.

Because Evans Coolant apparently has a strong affinity for water it is important to keep the system fully sealed upon long term storage. Like parking your Cobra for the winter. Suggestions are: Silicone seal over the weep hole on the water pump and plugging the radiator overflow tube. So the system won't be able to draw in any air (with condensate in it) from the atmosphere.

An overflow tank and working overflow tube from the radiator system is highly recommended for normal use.

As MANY OF US with Cobra's tend to run on the verge of being "to hot" all ready the "Racing Instructions" installation method may or may not be required.

Personally I will be running my thermostat, I will not be blocking off my by-pass hose and I will leave my overflow tube and tank in service. I will silicone over the water pump weep hole however.

I will up-date this thread with the results in the future, but that won't happen until AFTER SAAC-35, so, check back around September. With SAAC-35 so close it is not a good idea to try something new at this time.

Thoughts, feedback, discussion are welcome.

IF I was running antifreeze all ready (I'm not) I would simply drain that, re-fill with water, run the engine, drain the water and go from there to "flush and drain". That would seem the best way of getting all the old antifreeze out of the system, then you only have to deal with getting any remaining water out.

[Three Peaks]

I guess the most obvious question is- what are the advantages to going with this new system besides lightening your wallet?

[Excaliber]

The biggest advantage I see is the reduced pressure on the cooling system. I have always run the lowest pressure cap I could and now with Evan's I can run an extremely low pressure or no pressure system.

Other advantages may be somewhat debatable. Like the "steam pocket" theory around the combustion chamber leading to pre-ignition due to lack of coolant in that critical area, maybe... Something else I like is no boil over at even extreme temperatures and very low to no pressure (having been burned a few times by over heated/pressurized water systems). I also like the anti corrorsion factor, Evans is superior to water in that regard. But mainly, I want to try this stuff, someone has to be the guinea pig around here.

The cooling system temperatures CAN be higher with no ill effects, more heat, generally speaking, is a good thing. Engines run more effeciently at higher temperatures. HOWEVER, there is no gaurentee Evans Coolant will run at a higher temp, it may well stay at the same temps you have now. In which case, I may be tempted to increase the temp rating of my thermostat, which is currently 180 degrees, in order to GET more heat in the system. In a case of "over heating" Evans is FAR SUPERIOR to water because it will not boil over.

As for cost, it's a LOT more expensive than water!!!! But not so much more expensive if your already using some of the more exotic antifreeze compounds on the market today.

[MaSnaka]

I believe "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Good luck with your project. I will be curious to see how it works out. The low/no pressure concept is intriguing.

John

[Excaliber]

Having "blown" a few hoses over the years, and like I said, having been burned by overheated/pressurized systems this is the biggest issue for me. Way less "stress" on the entire system with low or no pressure. Minor head gasket leaks may not be a problem with this stuff, should you encounter one. Way less likely for a loose hose clamp to become an issue. Stuff happens out there, even when you take the best precautions, I see this as additional "insurance" to protect my cooling system/engine. For those with alloy heads, this stuff may save your butt from warping one!

How about, "Fix it before it breaks!"

[JBCOBRA]

"Evans Waterless Coolant" first thing that popped in my brain was... "Is it Real???" lol
Looks interesting. Am curious to here how it works out.

[Ron61]

Ernie,

It sounds good and I hope it works well. Several years ago a friend of mine got some kind of waterless coolant and put it in his Cobra with a 429 engine and it turned to a gray slush and he had to have the engine and everything flushed to get rid of it as it got so thick the water pump couldn't move it. And it wouldn't drain out after he had it in there for about 250 miles. But it wasn't the same as this stuff and this sounds much better. I will be looking forward to your posting about how this works after you have it for a while.

Ron

[lovehamr]

Does Evan know you stole his coolant?

[CobraEd]

How do you drain the block ???


.

[mikiec]

That's my question..

Even with removing any block drains or even the core plugs, it seems that you would still have water in the system.

Mike

[Ronbo]

You forgot to mention modding the radiator cap:

Snap off the back flow button on the bottom. Now you have a 0psi cap. Obviously, this won't work on a closed system cap.

You will need a small catch can if you don't already run one.

Another benefit is no electrolysis from dissimilar metals in your system.

The steam is more than just "theory", aircraft engines were especially susptable to flash boiling due to altitude. Alloy heads offer some advantage over iron to reduce the hot spots. There's no mystery why alloy heads allow you to run higher compression and leaner fuel ratios without detonation.

What would be interesting to see is the cylinder head temps before and after, this would be the largest impact.

[Excaliber]

There are a couple of methods you could use, I'm still thinking about what my approach will be for my side oiler.

On some blocks there may be a water passage with a screw in plug that could be removed. I will face the engine downhill, or even jack it up, to facilitate a better drain angle. You could use Evan's Flush, fill, run, drain and it takes dilutes and removes the bulk of the remaining water. Thats an expensive method as the Flush isn't cheap and you use it and then throw it away.

Another method is to simply increase the engine temp to about 280 degrees or so by blocking the radiator so no heat exchange can take place. Do that after you have drained as much as you can and refilled with the NPG. Any remaining water will "flash boil" and vent through your overflow tube or possibly the surge tank with a loose fitting or zero pressure cap in place.

280 engine temp (which your gauge may not be able to read that high, by the way) will not hurt the engine at all.

The reason we "worry" about engine temps exceeding 220-230 or whatever is for a couple of reasons:
1.
Water boils at 212, so were already close to the boiling point of our cooling agent to begin with, not a lot of wiggle room for temp's above that. So we "pressurize" the system in hopes of containing a boil over. Remember, once the water DOES boil, your screwed, you've lost all hope of retaining any heat transfer ability and the temp's from that point on can get extremely high. Especially inside the engine near the combustion chamber, where the water IS NOW steam. Local extreme temp hot spots will result, THAT is what warps your cylinder heads and blows head gaskets and things get real nasty. Otherwise, temps in the 280 range IF the coolant remains in a liquid state are not a problem, good heat transfer still takes place. NPG boils at 350 or so degrees with zero pressure, it WILL be liquid.

2.
The other concern is the oil temp. You don't want your oil temp over 250 in any case. Oil temp is generally lower than water temp so this won't be a problem using the "hot purge" method.

Smoky Yunick, back in the day, did some excellent research utilizing very high engine temps and retainment of engine heat. His results were increased horse power and better mpg. Smoky is a legend for his various contributions to the automotive and racing world.

I've not decided on my approach, or combination of things approach as yet to purge all the water from the block. I MAY choose to run a very low pressure cap instead of zero pressure. My concern with zero pressure is any coolant that DOES leave the system and enters my coolant recovery tank MAY not be drawn back into the motor with a zero pressure cap???? Thoughts on that anybody??

[Excaliber]

It would sure be nice if any of the "Big Dog's" (you know, besides myself or Patrick ), like KC, Gessford, Kirkham clan, Blykins, etc. would comment on any experience they may have or just thoughts on the subject in general.

[4pipes]

I used it in my engine for a couple of years. My engine builder at the time told me to get rid of it. If you ever have a gasket failure it can do immediate damage to the bearings.

Just what I was told.......I heeded the advice.

[Rick Parker]

Too late money is spent..........

[patrickt]

Ernie, you could use your wet/dry vac with a hose snaked through the block to try and get more old coolant out. Either way, I'm predicting this to be a huge PITA that we all sit back and enjoy at your expense.

[olddog]

In the original thread where this got started, Ronbo posted this:

"GM's research was specifically to address coolant issues with high horsepower engines being developed for the Corvette. (not that high horsepower engines have anything to do with Cobra's) Since emissions dictate not running rich (which would lower detonation problems) they addressed the "real" problem: the steam pockets that develop in any engine's coolant passenges above the cumbustion chamber. (turns out steam is a lousy conductor of heat, go figure) The problems you stated ie: valve spring fatigue and cylinder bore wear are a direct result of combustion chamber temps, not block temp.

There is a huge difference in your cumbustion chamber temp and your coolant temp. Why do you think your recovery tank level varies so much between hot and cold (the liquid coolant only expands slightly) that's how much steam is in your cylinder heads and upper block."

Thermal coefficient of volume expansion of water is 0.00207 per deg C.
My source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeffic...rmal_expansion
Figure 90 F to 200 F temp change is 110 F or ~61 C.
The volume change is 12.65% when you do the math.
Figure a 3 gallon system or 12 quarts and the volume expansion is about 1.5 quarts.

Now since the radiator starts at zero pressure and may end up at 12 psi at temp the expansion may be slightly less, but water is not very compressible.

The statement that water does not expand very much and this is steam, does not stand up to the science. Although there may well be some steam generated in the heads, it has to be small bubbles and not a large pocket or the over flow tank could not hold it all.

[Excaliber]

Thats why I stated earlier the "steam pocket" theory is open to debate. The answer may well be, "it depends" on a number of variables. One thing is for sure, if you DO overheat, you ARE going to have steam pockets around the combustion chamber, not good.

As to "that stuff will ruin your rod bearings", so will antifreeze. If you got a major head gasket leak you got serious trouble no matter how you cut it. You are going to loose water, it is going to overheat, you will have "steam pockets", you stand a good chance of warping your alloy head and it will contaminate your oil. With Evans Coolant it might provide enough "cushion" during this catastrophic event to prevent "steam pockets", prevent over pressure, prevent as much coolant entering the engine oil area and give you just a little more time to see the problem and get her shut down.

I suspect it's a wash as to whether or not Evans or Antifreeze will or will not cause more damage in a scenario like this, it depends on the variables at the time.

This plays right into the "less pressure" is better overall line of thinking.

Remember, in my case, Pat, it's not the antifreeze purge I'm worried about, it's only the water purge. I will likely leave no stone unturned in my efforts to get rid of all the water. Like using air pressure to blow some out as another method. Wet/Dry vac is a good call!!!!

Olddog, I suspect it takes very little over pressure from steam or air or whatever to raise the cooling system pressure beyond the cap rating and start pushing water out. Evans Coolant, no pressure!

[Excaliber]

It's pretty clear you can't beat WATER for the best heat exchanger coolant as far as temperature goes. Water (straight or with water wetter) is better than ANY antifreeze mix or Evans Coolant. So, I would expect to see slightly higher coolant temps with Evans than I do now with straight water. To me, that sounds like a good thing, to others, it could be frightening (but I don't scare easy).

This whole adventure could turn out to be either "not good" or a major bummer and I'll be back to water (with a lighter wallet). Research aint cheap, I'm going in...

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Either way, I'm predicting this to be a huge PITA that we all sit back and enjoy at your expense.

X 2. One of the very FEW times we agree.

I'll quote myself from Undy's thread where I addressed Prof. Ronbo:
Originally Posted by Ronbo
...because your engine can run at 300+ deg now).

Chas:
Fresh, clean coolant or water, changed regularly, is far more cost effective and far less damaging then you state. The stuff exists so its makers can hugely profit from markets where it's not needed.

Ernie, I wish you well but you'll be out a pile of dough for a science experiment to 'improve' a problem you never had. You tore-down and rebuilt that motor in your famous build thread. You found no evidence of steam or temperature-caused damage or hurt bearings for that matter. And early on in Undy's thread you agreed that you were a "water and Water-Wetter kind of guy'.

Good luck but you baffle me.