Stolen Car, by force

[madmaxx]

I actually thought I was going to get car jacked one time and actually preferred it. I was selling a POS Covette and the guy did not think the daylight in my driveway was good enough and wanted to take it to a parking lot with lights. In my mind I was saying please take this POS!!! Funny thing is we go to the parking lot he counted out $14.7K in 100 bills, told me not to take the money by any drug sniffing dogs and left in it. I told him dont bring it back, and handed him the title. He may have noticed my gym shorts pulled down on one side due to the .38 special in it, he said he didnt mind, he had one too.

Originally Posted by boxhead

I can see it now Max, you go for your gun, where ever it is, the bad guy see's you moving for something, he pulls out his gun and Bang - your dead, and now he does not want any witness's, so Bang, Bang, your wife and child are dead.

Or another scene, the bad guy jumps in your car, you let him have the car, get out with your family and watch as he drives away, you pull out your phone, call 911 and the guy is caught 5 miles down the road. Or he gets away, insurance gives you money and you with your family enjoy the new car.

[vettestr]

Originally Posted by boxhead

I can see it now Max, you go for your gun, where ever it is, the bad guy see's you moving for something, he pulls out his gun and Bang - your dead, and now he does not want any witness's, so Bang, Bang, your wife and child are dead.

Or another scene, the bad guy jumps in your car, you let him have the car, get out with your family and watch as he drives away, you pull out your phone, call 911 and the guy is caught 5 miles down the road. Or he gets away, insurance gives you money and you with your family enjoy the new car.

We can all write versions and any of them are possible when part of the story includes a scum bag who places value on his own life only. When dealing with someone who killed just for status and membership to a gang the extra bodies only swell his reputation.

Please let me live in an area where there is at least a 50/50 chance those around me have a self defense firearm, the training and have completed the inner search too accept the weight of carrying that gun. If my weapons fail the support and help would be much appreciated.

Those with very strong anti gun beliefs and those strongly driven to rehabilitate violent criminals rather than efficiently and swiftly execute the confessed and convicted criminals sentences should get special colored License plates and lapel pins. Show the world.

Very happy you were not harmed in the jacking !!! An executed murder has a recidivism rate of zero and the cost of housing them is very low as well.

[Excaliber]

You don't have to be

...very strong anti gun...

to see the various flaws in the analysis by gun rights owners so strongly proclaimed here.

One of the first steps toward killing someone is to de-humanize them, often used by the military. Make you opponent "less than human", and it's just easier to shoot/kill an "animal" or less than it is a human.

One method seems to be determining, without the rule of law (think Mob mentality), that

...some "humans" are not canidates for rehibilitation.

"Humans" in quotes indicate's they are less than human.

There are to many examples of prisoners freed after years who were later found innocent. I wonder how many have been excecuted who were also innocent?

A swift execution is a rush to judgement, a "confession" may or may not be accurate, it needs to be checked out, verified. There are plenty of examples of "confessions" that turned out not true. The USA gun laws are based on reason, logic and law. The people I fear are the gun toting "For God and Country" extremists willing to shoot first and THINK later. The law of the land helps to check that mentality and may well save your life and the life of an innocent.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by boxhead

I can see it now Max, you go for your gun, where ever it is, the bad guy see's you moving for something, he pulls out his gun and Bang - your dead, and now he does not want any witness's, so Bang, Bang, your wife and child are dead.

Or another scene, the bad guy jumps in your car, you let him have the car, get out with your family and watch as he drives away, you pull out your phone, call 911 and the guy is caught 5 miles down the road. Or he gets away, insurance gives you money and you with your family enjoy the new car.

Or another scenario, the bad guy car jacks you, or gets in your car, you agree to let him have the car if he lets you go, but he shots you anyways.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

There are to many examples of prisoners freed after years who were later found innocent. I wonder how many have been excecuted who were also innocent?

There are alot more criminals set free/never convicted that are really guilty.

I have good friends and a brother who are police officers, and there aren't too many people who are convicted of a crime who are really innocent of that particular or other crimes.

[Jerry Clayton]

Ernie--I'm going to be going from Red Bluff, Ca to Boise on Sept 20th----please meet me at where I5 enters Oregon and give me your Cobra---I will have a gun under the seat --

Could you please help me load it and make sure I have it tied down correctly.

Jerry

PS I will send pics from Yellowstone, Grand Tetons and Mt Rushmore

[BT SNAKE]

Here is the best explanation I know of for arming
the populace. This makes the most sense to me.
I have carried a weapon all my adult life as a Marine and a police officer. I will die before I give up that right.

The Gun is Civilization

by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation... and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.

By Maj. L. C audill USM C (Ret)

So the greatest civilization is one where all citizens are equally armed and can only be persuaded, never forced.

Hersh

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The USA gun laws are based on reason, logic and law. The people I fear are the gun toting "For God and Country" extremists willing to shoot first and THINK later.

The USA gun laws are actually based off of fear and TV hypothetical scenario's. And these laws, in conjunction with other existing various laws that protect criminals' and illegal aliens' rights, create the enviroment that's likely adding to gun violence.

Unfortunately, our government, at all levels, is full of professionals with no experience or expertise in the fields that they are involved in, kind of like the secretary of education, who is not a teacher and never taught a day of school. But, he was a professional basketball player, and a captain of his team no less, which gave him the expertise to work as the secretary of education.

Criminals shoot first and never ask questions, responsible gun toting people generally don't.

Go watch another shoot-um up movie.

[vettestr]

Ernie we clearly disagree I will make no attempt to change your views but I do hope you are not my only hope for assistance until the cops get to the scene.

If some scum bag attempts to harm my family I can only pray I have the ability and means to protect them at that very moment. If that means use of deadly force then my family will be alive to start the process to get me out of jail and that works for me.

[boxhead]

Sorry guys I was not trying to start an argument.

I am happy that the OP is alive and well and that he is here to tell us what happened.

I will happily stay living where I do with my house unlocked and stagger around my neighbourhood after getting drunk at a mates house.
With my biggest fear being that a kangaroo will trip me over.

[lamaluv]

Gun control is an interesting topic whatever your preference, but probably belongs in the lounge. What I would really like to know is more details on how this car jacking took place. Test drive with you along? Single jacker or were there more? Were you followed by another vehicle? Details so that others can avoid your misfortune.

Dick

[Excaliber]

I have the ability and means to protect them at that very moment.

Nothing wrong with that or carrying a weapon at all. Do so responsibly.

It crosses the line when you deumanize those who you personally feel deserve a bullet. That's why we have due process, to protect the citizens of the country, good or bad. Sometimes it sucks, but without it, we dehumanize ourselves. The Sheriff will stop the lynching, thats his job, so put down your pitch forks and sign up for jury duty.

"Guilty of other crimes anyway", is such a weak argument to justify an arrest it's not worthy of comment...

[FST FOX]

Sorry for the delay, been a busy weekend but I meet the guy at a office building where he said he worked, called him and he came outside. We looked over the car and he asked all the right questions and then asked to go for a test drive, I got in the passenger seat and he used force to take it, I cant go into to many details since its still a ongoing investigation. Next time I will make sure i am carrying and meet him somewhere so I can watch him drive up. 2 mistakes that are kicking me in the but right now.

[Snakebit]

Boxhead, you have real jails in Australia, not country clubs with bars, TV, and weight rooms. I was stationed in New Zeland while in the Navy. I asked the locals about the crime rate. They said it was very low due to the fact if you were sentenced to jail your cell was 5'x5' cage and the experience would deter you from being a repeat offender.

[Silverback51]

First off, glad to hear you were not hurt, or worse.

This is one of the reasons I do not sell stuff myself. Don't want to run the risk. If it's a car, I will trade it, and take the loss, if I do not know someone that wants to buy it. No sales to strangers.

[cobrashoch]

Interesting scenario. We've all sold cars following the "TEST DRIVE". Some of the cars can be quite valuable too. At first glance, I initially percieved in this case the seller surrendered control of the situations setting. Besides a public display of weapons, can any of you guys think of other methods that can be imployed to guarantee a safe return trip, such as holding a drivers licence? Not trying to flame anyone here, just don't want to make a future mistake.
Ron Shockley

[vettestr]

Meet at an open public place and not your home seems to make sense. I take them for a ride with me driving especially with big HP cars. If you bring somebody to the meeting you would have a record of events and a witness.

I never PUSH the car and even ask them if they are comfortable with a moderate acceleration before doing anything a cop in the lane behind me would take notice of. Too many tire kickers and I do not trust the ability of some stranger with me in a passenger seat. Show me da money before showing them the start button location. The question of when they get the keys is tough, you want to sell the car but do not want to give out joy rides although you can tell serious buyers for the most part.

I ask them not to push the car with me in it and advise they sneak up on its performance when they own it. If the plan was too steal it I guess the best you can do is have a buddy with you who gives a great police report remain at the meeting spot.

[FST FOX]

Well alot of progress today can't really go into details but the morning was a good one, updates to follow hopefully soon.

[Skuzzy]

Whenever I sell a car, I always ask for two things from the person wanting to test drive it. His/her drivers license and proof of insurance.

I hold the drivers license during the test drive.

I also advertise I will ask for the two items when I sell the car. So far, so good.

[FST FOX]

Car was recovered and is in the Dallas Impound till arrest are made, more updates to follow once the investigation is closed