tin-man needs some advice.......

[Jamo]

ahem...anyway, getting back to the topic

[ItBites]

OK Jamo, its just become really hard to tell what the topic used to be on so many threads these days...

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by ItBites

OK Jamo, its just become really hard to tell what the topic used to be on so many threads these days...

was my last question coupled with and how could it have been prevented. [jhv48 post with pictures] Beacuse whatever I hear on this forum as to the possibe reasons for the stuck throttle will be one of the first things I will check when I get my car in, well, lets see, maybe November, or December, or, well, whenever it arrives. Guys, any thought on the root cause for the accident? tin-man

[patrickt]

A lot of the one-car accidents that I see out on my favorite driving roads often have skid marks that look like this. I mean I see marks like this a lot. You can surmise that the guy came in to the curve a little fast, and instead of pushing through it, he lifted off the throttle, and maybe even touched his brakes. The weight transferred to the front of his car and his rear got loose and came right around on him. He then runs off the road on the inside (and of course crosses in to and through the oncoming lane). Now there are a ton of ways to wreck, but if I had to guess, I would say this scenario is the most common "spirited driving" mistake. Most of us have done it at one time or another.

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by patrickt

A lot of the one-car accidents that I see out on my favorite driving roads often have skid marks that look like this. I mean I see marks like this a lot. You can surmise that the guy came in to the curve a little fast, and instead of pushing through it, he lifted off the throttle, and maybe even touched his brakes. The weight transferred to the front of his car and his rear got loose and came right around on him. He then runs off the road on the inside (and of course crosses in to and through the oncoming lane). Now there are a ton of ways to wreck, but if I had to guess, I would say this scenario is the most common "spirited driving" mistake. Most of us have done it at one time or another.

and it wasnt even a Cobra. That said, I have never experienced such an incident in all my 50 years of driving. Maybe the dude was a) drunk or b) a first time driver, or both, don't know, was there a follow up on this or an accident report? Anyway Patrickt, thanks for the input, it visually tells a tale. But it begs the question why just one set of skid marks, it would seem to me if I was driving I would have crushed the hell outa the breakpedal and thus there would have been two sets of skid marks, one from the front wheels and certainly one set from the rear wheels while they spun round, am I right? But then I guess we need factor in the response time and if the dude was drunk then it would explain the single set of skid marks, happened too fast. Just my two cents guys, just my two cents.

Why am I getting the feeling I got more than a tiger by the tail? But then again, if the the Cobra was so bad to drive why do many people have them and enjoy driving them? I know, I know, because they got situational experience...cuz Jamo told em so. Jamo, no offense, just seemed to fit. tin-man

[Jamo]

none taken

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tin-man

it would seem to me if I was driving I would have crushed the hell outa the breakpedal and thus there would have been two sets of skid marks, one from the front wheels and certainly one set from the rear wheels while they spun round, am I right?

No, you are wrong. As soon as you lock up all four wheels with the brakes the car goes in a straight line (remember, no ABS on a Cobra). All you would have accomplished by that is to wreck the car on the other side of the road. Learning the basics of "weight transfer" is absolutely mandatory. Cobras are particularly dangerous because of their short wheelbase. That short wheelbase is the same as a short radius of a circle; the circumference is then reduced. What that means to you is that the car comes around on you much faster than a long wheelbase car would -- once you realize it's happening, it's usually too late. Believe it or not, the only prayer that guy had, once he realized he was too fast in to the curve, was to stay off the brakes. (Porsche 911 guys, like my brother, like to chime in here that this is when you accelerate, not brake.) In a similar vein, yet different, Cobras pose another challenge because of their ability to break the rear loose with the tremendous torque that they produce. That's entirely different than a drop-throttle oversteer condition, but can be just as lethal. There are threads on here having to do with peformance driving classes for new Cobra owners, or tips for learning what your car does out in a stadium parking lot where there is nothing to hit (and a drizzly day helps, as well).

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, you are wrong. As soon as you lock up all four wheels with the brakes the car goes in a straight line (remember, no ABS on a Cobra). All you would have accomplished by that is to wreck the car on the other side of the road. Learning the basics of "weight transfer" is absolutely mandatory. Cobras are particularly dangerous because of their short wheelbase. That short wheelbase is the same as a short radius of a circle; the circumference is then reduced. What that means to you is that the car comes around on you much faster than a long wheelbase car would -- once you realize it's happening, it's usually too late. Believe it or not, the only prayer that guy had, once he realized he was too fast in to the curve, was to stay off the brakes. (Porsche 911 guys, like my brother, like to chime in here that this is when you accelerate, not brake.) In a similar vein, yet different, Cobras pose another challenge because of their ability to break the rear loose with the tremendous torque that they produce. That's entirely different than a drop-throttle oversteer condition, but can be just as lethal. There are threads on here having to do with peformance driving classes for new Cobra owners, or tips for learning what your car does out in a stadium parking lot where there is nothing to hit (and a drizzly day helps, as well).

OK Patrickt, help me out here, if I had crushed the brakes and the car had gone in a straight line I would have made the curve and not hit the tree, just using your words. Not trying to be funny, just tryin' to understand what you wrote vs the visuals presented. I do believe what the best thing for me to do, as a previous post suggested is to find a BIG parking lot with no cars and floor it. Anyway, I do thank you for your comment. Have a good weekend. tin-man

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tin-man

OK Patrickt, help me out here, if I had crushed the brakes and the car had gone in a straight line I would have made the curve and not hit the tree...

That's an "S" curve; you can't make it through an "S" curve with all four wheels locked. (Really, you can't make it through any curve with all four wheels locked. ) But the fact that you're at least thinking about it all is good enough for now.

[dcdoug]

Just take it really easy in the car until you get used to it. Then go to a local autocross day and find out how it handles when you push it in a relatively slow, safe environment with nothing to hit other than a few cones.

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That's an "S" curve; you can't make it through an "S" curve with all four wheels locked. (Really, you can't make it through any curve with all four wheels locked. ) But the fact that you're at least thinking about it all is good enough for now.

That's what I really like about Club Cobra, its people helping people. Thanks guys for all this input, however I would still like to have some opinions on why the throttle stuck any thoughts? tin-man

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by tin-man

That's what I really like about Club Cobra, its people helping people. Thanks guys for all this input, however I would still like to have some opinions on why the trottle stuck any thoughts? tin-man

Usually the reason is that it's bound up in some manner. As you step into it, the engine torques over and it binds up. In some cases it will actually cause it to open wider. A broken motor mount can cause this to happen also.

Other reasons can be the throttle return spring breaks. I have 3 on my car to prevent this.

Then the most common reason is that it's an easy excuse for those that just flat foot it and loose control.

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Usually the reason is that it's bound up in some manner. As you step into it, the engine torques over and it binds up. In some cases it will actually cause it to open wider. A broken motor mount can cause this to happen also.

Other reasons can be the throttle return spring breaks. I have 3 on my car to prevent this.

Then the most common reason is that it's an easy excuse for those that just flat foot it and loose control.

John, will three throttle return springs have an adverse affect on the degree of pressure that needs to be applied to the foot pedal? John AKA, tin-man

[Silverback51]

There is one lite spring on each carburator (see picture below) and then the heavier one that is on the throttle linkage that sets on top of the drivers footbox. It's a little stiff, but not bad.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Then the most common reason is that it's an easy excuse for those that just flat foot it and loose control.

Uhh, that's only true about 99% of the time.

[tin-man]

waaa, so if one of those springs snaps the throttle can get stuck? Wow, this seems like a poor design considering the consequences of a stuck throttle, so what are the alternatives to those small springs, hydaulics? John, AKA tin-man

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Uhh, that's only true about 99% of the time.

patrickt, with all due respect I am trying desperately to find out why the throttle got stuck, cuz its scaring the hell outa me. Please contribute your thoughts on this like a good fellow, I refuse to believe you do not have an opinion on this topic. I am of the opinion there will be severl readers in addition to myself who are newbies that will be also interested in what we should check out to assure we do not have the same accident. Y'all put the fear of God into me by suggesting I may wind up in a coffin, so lets be more proactive for the benefit of the forum members and myself and lets discuss this issue reasonably without any rancor. Look at it this way, if by discussing this in detail we can cause people to check their engine and discover a potential issue and fix that issue, we have provided a service that cannot be measured. Please understand I am not trying to bash any of your posts, but we have what could be considered as a serious issue here whereby a member of this forum escaped death by the grace of God. Hope you understand where I am coming from. Again, with respect. John, AKA, tin-man

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by tin-man

waaa, so if one of those springs snaps the throttle can get stuck? Wow, this seems like a poor design considering the consequences of a stuck throttle, so what are the alternatives to those small springs, hydaulics? John, AKA tin-man

Most of us have acquired a habit over the years that if you are in a car (not necessarily a Cobra) and something goes horrificly wrong very quickly we instinctively throw in the clutch (stuck throttles, blown drive shaft U-joints, etc.). Coupled with a rev limiter, that usually buys you the time you need to come to your senses and turn the key off. You can still throw your auto in to neutral, that will just take an extra bit of composure.

Originally Posted by tin-man

patrickt, with all due respect I am trying desperately to find out why the throttle got stuck, cuz its scaring the hell outa me. Please contribute your thoughts on this like a good fellow, I refuse to believe you do not have an opinion on this topic. John, AKA, tin-man

EDIT -- Bad floor mats can sometimes get in the way of your throttle. Be wary of this.

The "stuck throttle" defense is bogus 99% of the time. If you have a properly installed linkage, dual carb springs, and inspect them from time to time, you are not likely to have a stuck throttle.

[Silverback51]

Originally Posted by tin-man

waaa, so if one of those springs snaps the throttle can get stuck? Wow, this seems like a poor design considering the consequences of a stuck throttle, so what are the alternatives to those small springs, hydaulics? John, AKA tin-man

No, the failure of one spring will not cause a stuck throttle.

I'm an engineer, so that means I tend to overdesign things, and I believe in redundancy.

[tin-man]

Thanks patrickt, I am beginning to see there are many things that I will need to consider when I finally take delivery of my Cobra before I even get to dive it. John, AKA tin-man