What if Chevrolet had said yes to Zora Arkus-Duntov and built 1100 Grand sports ?

[BT SNAKE]

Yeah , I know, If the pilgrims would've had skunk on thanksgiving it would have been a different story too.
Think about it. An 1800LB Corvette would have done some race history damage if Chevy hadn't pulled the plug on him. Personally if they did let it be built it would have done very well because I think Zora was at the cutting edge of engineering back then. I also think he had way more at his disposal than Shelby did. If the GS had lived it would have evolved beautifully.

Just my nickels worth

Hersh

[Three Peaks]

Agreed. It would have been a holy terror on the Ferraris at the same time the Cobras were being thrown into the mix. Lighter than the Cobras, better aerodymanics, and the heavily developed Chev small block would have made it the car to beat instead of the Cobra.
Even when the coupes were developed for the aerodynamic advantage, I think the Gran Sports would have been tough to beat with a good driver.

Also, with the GM resources available, they probably could have signed any driver available at the time- and there was some considerable talent available in those years looking for rides.

[rodneym]

What if the Soviets landed on the moon first (or at all)?

What if the Germans won WWII?

Such fantasies should be kept to oneself.

rodneym

[BT SNAKE]

Oh Boy! Thanks Rodney, A big soggy wet blanket.
Man, it's getting harder and harder to have a little fun around this forum.
You don't get invited to many parties do ya'?

Hersh

[rodneym]

Hersh,


Awe, c'mon. Some harmless ribbing.

In answer to your "What if damned, dirty apes ruled the world", I'd say that we'd never know how much ol' Shel had in him (concerning the new 427) if he wasn't busy with the GT40's, or how difficult it would have been to Corvette to compete with expensive cars and oppressive higher ups ruling by committee and sales figures.
From Henry Ford II (captain of industry) to Shelby (Word Champion with competition in his blood) to the drivers and crew with a lot to prove, I think the results would have been the same.
And on the seventh day...the Cammer.
Although I must say it would have been nice to see (or read for me) how it unfolded but the Cobra as a street car was doomed and I imagine the GS would have been the same with its construction?
rodneym

[BT SNAKE]

I see your point Rodney. I was just having jest with the
other what if thread. I've been around here long enough
that a variation of these threads pop up now and then.

Your a good sport Rodney.

Hersh

[RICK LAKE]

BT SNAKE Hersh you got way too much FRESH AIR out in NEB. You need to stop smoking that corn cob pipe. I think you left out the fastest car of the bunch, the LISTER. Not sure on the date this beast came around but after years of R&G events and the nasty one that broke this year at R&G, I think both the cobras and gs vettes line up behind this car. Same weight as a vette, lower CD. longer wheel base, better balance. What's that guys name???? Oyea Chuck Beck, showed up with 2 listers at R&G one year, almost set the track record on 9" tires.
As much as I love the cobra, you put a ZL1 motor in a vette which is 427 cubes against a 427 cobra and this would be a good match. With the venting of the vette through out the body and belly pan, it would beat the cobra. Close race but a 550 hp motor in the vette will out gun the 480 hp. Weight is weight no matter where is move it too. Put a aluminum Cammer in the cobra and the playing field would be different. Maybe we hit the lottery and find out who the king is??? Rick L. I keep getting info that I won in England but can't get the info to where the money is to get. I guess the problem of sending George to collect is the problem.

[BT SNAKE]

Thanks for that Rick. I just got my moneys worth out of this thread. I'm still laughing. Oh. by the way,
just send that maney here and I'll make sure it goes
to the right place.

I remember Chuck Beck was at Norwalk with the Lister. He broke a half shaft and I finished third in Autocross because of it. I didn't forget about the Lister or the Cheetah. I do remember at the Phoenix R&G that a little yellow 550 Spyder won
King of the hill. That little bugger was fasssssst!
So weight to power in king and always will be.
That's why John Meyers does so well in his V8 stalker. The fact that he is one of the best pilots around helps a lot too.

Hersh

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by BT SNAKE

What if Chevrolet had said yes to Zora Arkus-Duntov and built 1100 Grand sports ?


Yeah , I know, If the pilgrims would've had skunk on thanksgiving it would have been a different story too.
Think about it. An 1800LB Corvette would have done some race history damage if Chevy hadn't pulled the plug on him. Personally if they did let it be built it would have done very well because I think Zora was at the cutting edge of engineering back then. I also think he had way more at his disposal than Shelby did. If the GS had lived it would have evolved beautifully.

In 12/64, the GS vettes were shown the way home at Nassau. Ken Miles in the Turd easily outclassed the GS vettes. They were fast cars, but not as fast as you think.

Actually, the story I know is that Miles intentionally sand bagged it in qualifying, placing himself in 2nd, between 2 GS vettes. After the start, he went off like a rocket, and there's a picture of him after the first lap, way ahead of the rest of the pack, including the GS vettes. If it wasn't for mechanical failure, he easily would have won the race. The writing was on the wall for the GS vettes, and unless they made some remarkable improvements to stay competative, I don't think they would have amounted to as much as other people think they would have.

[Excaliber]

Anthony, thats the way I recall it. Perhaps with more development the GS could have been a threat down the road. But it seems to me their reputation maybe bigger than their reality.

[BT SNAKE]

As long as we are still "What iffing" how about IF
Miles was piloting a Grand Sport. You think he would have been beaten by a Cobra? I don't think
so myself as Miles was a phenom. He had an uncanny ability to know how far to push a car with
remarkable skill.

Hersh

[1bad66]

chevy would have still sucked

[BT SNAKE]

Really and why is that?

Hersh

[1bad66]

Well for starters, they can't even run there company right. Now you and I and our kids will be paying for their stupid mistakes until we die. Did Ford need a hand out...I don't think so.

[BT SNAKE]

OH! you're talking politics and I thought you were inferring Chevy engines were inferior to Ford engines. Seems to me you need to write your congressman. It might not do any good but it sure won't hurt.

Hersh

[rodneym]

From what I have read, Anthony is right.
Miles and the 'Turd' turned the Chevy smiles to frowns once again.

And Zora may have been on the cutting edge of technology back then but the Cobra's improvements were built from the the ground up, on the track. The Cobra was a race car and had gentler versions for the street. The Corvettes were street cars (and the first ones pretty darned lame) that had to be made race ready for the track.
Cobras were home on the track. Corvettes were at home at the Racquet Club parking lot.
rodney

[barabar]

BT-Snake
How ironic, my first build was a build sheet I followed from Zora Duntov, 283, Duntov30/30 cam, fuel injection pistons,3-2s in a 56 chevy, muncie 4 speed, 456 posi. About 300 hp. But to mention his name on this site you might get shot with a silver bullet or a stake through your heart.

[BT SNAKE]

Rodney,ated
I think it has to be said that the GS were not classed with the Cobras as they were not production certified with 125 units.

Here is a blurb found at Mongoose Motorsports...


Early on, the Grand Sports showed brilliantly at times while racing. When they ran head to head against the Cobras, they showed that they were both faster and better handlers than Shelby's snakes. The Cobras, having met the 125 minimum were certified as production cars while the Grand Sports were not. That was an important distinction. Since it wasn't classed as a production car pursuant to FIA racing rules, the Grand Sport had to compete in the prototype class where it ran against the likes of Chaparral, Porsche RS-60, and "Birdcage" Maseratis. The Grand Sport wasn't competitive against those full blown racers.

Barabar,
You had a monster back then as I had a similar setup in a 31 Chevy Coupe. It was quick.
Zora was a way ahead in his day. He was a very good driver as well. I have no bias for Ford or Chevy. I think it is fun to revisit those times and dream. Maybe because I lived in that time.
Just to change the subject: How about that Jim Hall guy? I think he did some good things with a Chevy. I love his 2D Chaparral.

The golden days of racing, what a great story waiting to be made an Oscar winning movie.

Hersh

[rodneym]

I see it like this:

1. Cobras DOMINATED Corvettes.
2. Corvette built prototypes (the Grand Sports) that couldn't compete against the world's racers who (by the way) weren't attempting to run a car that resembled a model in the showroom floor, ie Corvette.

So why would Chevy go to all that trouble?

3. Corvette simply wanted to get across the/a finish line ahead of the Cobras, that's why. They knew the risk of not running the minimum production numbers. Its was happening left and right in the 60's. Sanctioned by GM or not, points race or not, Chevy wanted wins desperately.

We can't ignore the 'class' argument. So what if a proto beats a GT? To be expected.
If a GT or production car beats a proto (although likely due to a protos mechanical failure), then that's something to brag about, and I'm pretty sure Cobra's did that more than once.

rodneym

[RodKnock]

Now, we could settle this argument if someone were to buy one of the SPF Grand Sports, outfit to nearly identical specs and then race it against one of the many nearly identical Cobras here on CC.

Who wants to volunteer and purchase an SPF GS?