Roush Engine Failure – Pictures

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Brent, Barry, and Keith can all correct me if I'm wrong, but I would venture to say that none of them ships off an engine with a note that says "please re-torque your valve train after 1000 miles."

I'm reminded of a scene from "A few Good Men" where Tom Cruise is cross examining Noah Wylie on the stand regarding how soldiers at Guantanamo Bay are able to find the mess hall without the directions actually being written into the Marine manual. Noah Wylie answers "Follow the chow line, I guess."

Does everything have to be written down or how about some common sense? It's a brand new ALL ALUMINUM $23,000 engine, how much time and cost would it take to make yourself feel better about how your engine is doing?

I had Tom Lucas, my engine builder, check/retorque the heads, rocker arm assembly, oil pan, etc. after about 1,000 miles. As I said, I'm more anal than most.

[N2VENOM]

Great discussion guys.
Update. Roush called back and after several calls back a forth, emailing pictures and talking with the manager, roush's position is the warranty is over, but is willing to sell the repair parts at cost. ($600.00)

I will have the engine back together in a couple of days. Hopefully we won't have any surprises.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I had Tom Lucas, my engine builder, check/retorque the heads, rocker arm assembly, oil pan, etc. after about 1,000 miles. As I said, I'm more anal than most.

Did you drop the oil pan and retorque the rods? What about the flywheel bolts? I submit that a properly installed valve train in our engines should never, ever require a retorque. And it would be awfully nice if one of the recognized engine builders replied here with "yes, the only time a valve train should require retorquing is if it was never torqued properly in the first place." And I bet that's the case.

[coosawjack]

Originally Posted by csx4910

From my very painful experience with Roush Iwill say to make sure you have all your documentation in writing of maintenence and service done, any previous communication and problems well documented and be prepared for a long drawn out battle, especially since you are out of warranty. They talk a good game but in my own personal experience, they dont stand behind their product without a fight.
Ron

Just how much maintenance is required in 2300 miles??

[csx4910]

I would check to see if you can get the parts cheaper from somewhere else. There really isnt anything proprietary about a Roush engine other than thier EFI to my knowledge(they dont want anyone else being able to access the program to tune it) I didnt think they would honor anything out of warranty. The good old days of actually standing behind your product and doing the right thing for someone is out the door in large companies such as theirs.
Ron

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Did you drop the oil pan and retorque the rods? What about the flywheel bolts?

Yes, but since I was very lazy that day, I used my powers of x-ray vision and mental telepathy to check those.

I'll quote myself. "I'm more anal than most." And this beauty. "Don't check your hydraulic roller cam, no skin off my back. I don't care."

I'm sure none of this applies to 428's anyway.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I'm sure none of this applies to 428's anyway.

Seriously, I had a prettly lengthy discussion on this subject with my engine builder when he finished my build for me. He was adamant on not retorquing the heads, but did want the intake manifold retorqued after 400 miles. A couple of other things as well.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Seriously, I had a prettly lengthy discussion on this subject with my engine builder when he finished my build for me. He was adamant on not retorquing the heads, but did want the intake manifold retorqued after 400 miles. A couple of other things as well.

Every builder is different. My engine builder retorqued the heads, but we're talking about the valvetrain here. We're not really discussing the heads, intake, oil pan or headers.

Aluminum heads and block may be different than your setup, because of thermal expansion.

Anyway, you know I drive my cars hard.

I can only aspire to a mileage figure of 2,300 miles. Man, that sounds like years away for me.

[patrickt]

Not driving a car is harder on it than driving it. I'll go one step further, no one in the history of the world has ever been instructed by his engine builder to retorque his valve train. Never, ever, no how, no way. Nada.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I'll go one step further, no one in the history of the world has ever been instructed by his engine builder to retorque his valve train. Never, ever, no how, no way. Nada.

So to use percentages, as you classically do, you mean 100% of the engine builders.

I must be special then and you're wrong. Because my engine builder did it and he instructed me that he was going to do it.

I protested and said NO WAY! But relented, when I found out he was only trying to amortize the cost of his new torque wrench by charging me extra.

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I had Tom Lucas, my engine builder, check/retorque the heads, rocker arm assembly, oil pan, etc. after about 1,000 miles. As I said, I'm more anal than most.

Wait, hold on a sec, you mean you've driven your car more than 1,000 miles?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by dcdoug

Wait, hold on a sec, you mean you've driven your car more than 1,000 miles?

Oh GOSH yes. That was, like, WAY over 6 months and 200 miles ago. Where have you been?

[csx4910]

Where do I start with what it needs in 2300 miles? In short it SHOULD'NT need much but in my first 750 miles on my Roush 511 csx was in the shop 8 times for a total of 8 months, all Roush related problems. (1 time was the 4 1/2 months when the motor was shipped back to Roush) It had 5 oil changes for various reasons and just about everything that could go wrong went wrong with it.

Others have been without their Roush motor for months as well fighting with them about warranty work. I will NEVER buy another Roush product again. Maybe Keith Craft will take my 511 in on trade for his Alum 427 SOHC motor

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by csx4910

Maybe Keith Craft will take my 511 in on trade for his Alum 427 SOHC motor

Now we're talking.

I like your thought process. Much like mine.

[csx4910]

If the SOHC motor had been available 2 years ago in a new form I would of jumped on it since that has always been my dream motor. I just wasn't willing to pay $35K plus for a 60's rebuilt SOHC. I miss my 67 mustang, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to stuff a SOHC motor in a Mustang. Anyone??
Ron

[Excaliber]

2,300 miles just isn't enough to warrant a loose (or several as it seems to be) rocker shaft nut/bolt. Sure, it's always a good idea to check the torque on various bolts as you do your regular maintenance. Like I would have checked my valve clearance in the first year, I might have discovered a loose nut/bolt on the rockers, but might not have been specifically looking for it or going out of my way to check the torque on it. Regardless of mileage/time for warranty this very much smells like a defect in workmanship on Roush's part (just from what testimony we have hear on this thread).

Moving on...

Rocker shaft breakage is some what common on FE's, no big deal usually, no extensive damage usually. The shaft, though broken, is still held mostly in place by the various retainers, you loose valve adjustment, but not enough to damage anything. Simply replace the shaft and your good to go. Typically it's improperly adjusted end stand bolts that lead to a broken shaft, not something in the MIDDLE of the shaft.

The BIGGER question is: What other nut's/bolt's are "loose" somewhere else in the engine? I would be paranoid as heck right about now, wanting to double check everything, even the con rod bolts! Bummer...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by csx4910

If the SOHC motor had been available 2 years ago in a new form I would of jumped on it since that has always been my dream motor. I just wasn't willing to pay $35K plus for a 60's rebuilt SOHC. I miss my 67 mustang, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to stuff a SOHC motor in a Mustang. Anyone??
Ron

But I wonder if Keith Craft includes in his paperwork that he sends with that new Cammer engine a large disclaimer reading "WARNING: IF ANAL RETENTIVE, THEN THIS ENGINE's VALVETRAIN MUST BE CHECKED AND RE-TORQUED IF NECESSARY AFTER 1,000 MILES +/- OF USAGE. DOES NOT APPLY TO 428's."

[csx4910]

I dont know but at least it sounds like he has always stood behind his work and done right by the customer. I just wasn't educated enough before I made my purchase or I would of done one of his engines. I had found this forum after I ordered my car/engine.
Ron

[Rawkkrawler]

Wanted to add my rocker shaft experience....

How about a Comp Cam shaft? Broke one on each side! They charged me for the first and sent the second one for free. Happened within 100 miles of each other. Of course they said it was the first one they ever saw break...sure.

[Excaliber]

It could happen to any engine builder who has hired help. Stuff happens and the "owner" only has so much control over wether an employee is having a bad day.

The smaller the shop the more likely it is the owner has better control over who or isn't having a bad day. Which is why, typically, I prefer to deal with smaller shops. But that carries a risk as well (less product out the door, less experience). No easy answer on who to select.

If I was going to spend big buck's on a motor I'd consider Gessford Machine, Keith, B2Motorsports or other guys who have a "local to Club Cobra" kind of feel. I rarely see anyone from Roush posting much around here (or ever?) or sponsoring events directly related to Club Cobra, maybe I'm wrong... But, I like to keep it in the family, better service, closer to home kind of feel (regardless of where they do business).

Rawk, so Comp Cams never saw an FE broken rocker shaft? What? They just got off the boat yesterday?