Crate engines to assemble yourself

[Excaliber]

When I rebuilt my side oiler it seem's like 90% of the work was getting the various parts ready. There is a TON of measurements you have to take before you can order parts, some of which are custom. Get the measurements wrong and your screwed, you can't return custom parts, you get ONE shot at them.

Then there was the multiple trips to the machine shop, and double checking HIS work with more measurements when I got the stuff home. Was the crank ground exactly like I wanted? Was the bore? Did I even HAVE the proper tools to measure this stuff and was I doing in the correct manner? Whew, it was nerve wracking man, a lot of sleepless nights over the block, the crank, the pistons, the heads. What "parts" am I going with and why? Flat tappet cam breakin procedures? Will it all work together or did I make a bad choice on some part? Ring gap file? I aint got no ring gap file, say WHAT?! Surprising how many tools a guy needs, when your doing it from scratch.

A "kit" makes a LOT of sense, ready to assemble, yup, makes a lot of sense. Heck, thats the bulk of the work right there! The final assembly is a piece of cake compared to the prepartion work to get to that point.

It is a terrific feeling driving the car and knowing, "I built that motor, this is SO awesome".

If nothing else, mail your block to Keith, let HIM do the measurments, prep the block, spec the parts and send it all back. And don't go off trying to save a few bucks by buying some parts from a "cheaper source" or "on sale" after you get that block and stuff back. SINGLE SOURCE this stuff baby, single source, whatever the source may be, don't screw around trying to second guess a few parts from this guy or that. Do a package deal, it's by far the best way.

You know, if you buy enough parts, from the same source, he might just loosen up enough to throw a few tips your way that are simply priceless. Some of this you can't find in "books", some of it is specific to YOUR build. Those "secrets" are invaluable.

[tcrist]

Originally Posted by olddog

I re-read Keith's posts. Maybe I'm off base (post #37). Keith did want to hear ideas and opinions.

It is obvious that there is a wide array of ideas, and a lot of concerns about opening a can of worms. I would say post 37 is my opinion or advise to Keith. I should not have put words in Keith's mouth, or stated what Keith meant. My bad.

You were correct. Your post was in response the KC original post. The replies went off in a tangent about assemblies and that is where I was. I did not mean to make it sound like your response was incorrect in any way. Sorry.

[750hp]

I'd love to have the time and talent to do everything myself. I don't have the talent, and I don't have the time to learn.

I also don't have an endless bucket of money, so when I made the decision to have a high HP motor built, I was more than happy to pay to have an expert assemble it. For me to hurt a big dollar motor as a result of my own mistake would have risked my ability to actually complete the Cobra.

For me, the cost of assembly by a reputable shop is a small price to pay for the peace of mind. The price is a bargain when you factor in that the engine builder often has years and years of experience and intuition to pick up on the tiniest little anomaly that the average home builder might miss...

[mdross1]

Have always taken parts to machinist,talked about and agreed upon work needed and that all clearances will be checked,just because of machinist background.Only once can I remember ever having a problem and it was dealt with.Saved money? doesn't matter, just knowing first hand what the clearances were and being able to hand polish all machining burrs,always leaves me with total confidence.Been doing it this way for over 40 yrs.Have always run my motors on the edge,never a single problem!

[LoBelly]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

When I rebuilt my side oiler it seem's like 90% of the work was getting the various parts ready. There is a TON of measurements you have to take before you can order parts, some of which are custom. Get the measurements wrong and your screwed, you can't return custom parts, you get ONE shot at them.

Then there was the multiple trips to the machine shop, and double checking HIS work with more measurements when I got the stuff home. Was the crank ground exactly like I wanted? Was the bore? Did I even HAVE the proper tools to measure this stuff and was I doing in the correct manner? Whew, it was nerve wracking man, a lot of sleepless nights over the block, the crank, the pistons, the heads. What "parts" am I going with and why? Flat tappet cam breakin procedures? Will it all work together or did I make a bad choice on some part? Ring gap file? I aint got no ring gap file, say WHAT?! Surprising how many tools a guy needs, when your doing it from scratch.

A "kit" makes a LOT of sense, ready to assemble, yup, makes a lot of sense. Heck, thats the bulk of the work right there! The final assembly is a piece of cake compared to the prepartion work to get to that point.

It is a terrific feeling driving the car and knowing, "I built that motor, this is SO awesome".

...

Ernie's post reflects my thoughts on the matter.

I would be delighted to be able to put in an order for the parts combo that I wanted and to have them machined to fit as they should.

Particularly from a reputable performance shop as I believe this makes a difference to the nature of tollerences and what will/won't be seen as acceptable.

I suspect that many machine shops would offer the service if you asked - or thought to - and that offering this as a service will make self assembly much more viable for a number of people.

LoBelly

[rodneym]

The engine building experience sounds like an awesome idea! To get a change to build your engine with a master at the helm

But selling kits alone could only damage a reputation. What builders truly offer is more art than science. Parts is parts (even if it's all decked/honed) but an engine master will contribute all sorts of intangibles that you can't get from a box of parts or instruction manual.

[ACademic]

I think what Rodney is trying to say is that he would not be able to warranty his own work.

[blykins]

I think it would be more trouble than it's worth for Keith.

You don't know how often that standard and .001", or standard and X bearing halves have to be matched up to keep main and rod bearing clearances in check.

Or....the occasional thrust bearing that needs sanded because it locks the crankshaft up.

Or....the grinding that has to be done to make crank counterweights clear oil pumps or pan rails, etc.

Selling a kit to someone that thinks it's going to be "insert part A into part B" could potentially cause a lot of email and phone time for KC (or Club Cobra).

[patrickt]

But Brent, if someone wanted to sit on your knee and be part of their engine's build, and was willing to pay a premium for that opportunity, would you get on board with that idea?

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by ACademic

I think what Rodney is trying to say is that he would not be able to warranty his own work.

THAT, I guarantee!

[blykins]

Originally Posted by patrickt

But Brent, if someone wanted to sit on your knee and be part of their engine's build, and was willing to pay a premium for that opportunity, would you get on board with that idea?

Probably not. I really don't have the patience, the time, or the nerves to do it that way. If I were busy talking or explaining, I'd be worried that I would forget something...plus I couldn't turn up the 70's music and build in my underwear.

[jdean]

I think the trouble would come from those with no engine building experience or aptitude that are tempted to build their first engine just because Keith is offering a kit. Results will vary by a lot.

[jdean]

Brent that reminds me of a sign I saw once at a repair shop:

Labor $75/hr.
Labor if you watch $100/hr
Labor if you help $150/hr

[Excaliber]

"...someone that thinks it's going to be "insert part A into part B" could potentially cause a lot of email and phone time for KC (or Club Cobra)."

A lot of email, phone calls, pictures, questions, yeah, that pretty well sum's up my build. I'm amazed at some point George didn't just yank the phone line out of the wall. Actually, the way George handled it was kind of like calling ERA. You might not talk to Peter, you might get transferred to a specific person that deals with that "part". Or has expertise in a particular area. It was the same at Gessford, George didn't need to address every concern, often it was somebody else in the shop handling a particular detail.

I would expect that to be the case with Keith's idea, he personally wouldn't have to answer every question that comes along.

[undy]

Originally Posted by blykins

I think it would be more trouble than it's worth for Keith.

You don't know how often that standard and .001", or standard and X bearing halves have to be matched up to keep main and rod bearing clearances in check.

Or....the occasional thrust bearing that needs sanded because it locks the crankshaft up.

Or....the grinding that has to be done to make crank counterweights clear oil pumps or pan rails, etc.

Selling a kit to someone that thinks it's going to be "insert part A into part B" could potentially cause a lot of email and phone time for KC (or Club Cobra).

Or...... file fitting the rings to every cylinder.

[ERA Chas]

Keith,
You asked for opinions, here's mine.
A. Don't sell your business unless you're willing and able to retire and live on a tropic isle.
B. To do this kit project, the legal disclaimer that would be mandatory to protect you would be a mile long.
C. Standing behind your work is one thing-standing behind the parts is another-even if you touched every one while prepping and machining kits.
D. You will always have bothers with hammerheads who refuse to believe they f'd up and you did. For proof, look at the Roush threads-you're a fraction of Roush's size which is why they can be very lax about response and responsibility. You'll need a phone in the crapper because it will not stop ringing.
E. If the margin on built engines is already thin, why would the margin on kits (and their parts) which you must build anyway, be any greater??
F. Expanding your product line will mean more shop and shop guys-you'll have to assess more overhead by the responses you're getting here. For this week, fine-over the next two years to amortize-maybe not. Do you feel lucky?
G. Forget all the creative ideas about seminars, sleep-overs, satellite offices, hand-holdings etc. I think your intent is to have less to do with the customer-the suggesters don't get that. They want to be at your supper table.
H. Tiffany doesn't sell jewelry kits. They sell hand-crafted perfection and the clientele buys as such or walks. And they have competitors too. Currently, a KCR engine has a high appreciation level here and in racing. They will all still come to your door.
I. My mother can give my wife a recipe of ingredients. My wife can cook. But it never tastes like mom's. Why? The intangible touch, care and experience that goes with the recipe.
Amateurs can't cook like you, Brent, Barry, Tom, Mike, George, Boghosian and Clayton. All of you have decades of 'touch' and dyno saavy-no garage wizards have that-including and especially me.
J. Stay as you are...

[Sharroll Celby]

Originally Posted by jdean

Brent that reminds me of a sign I saw once at a repair shop:

Labor $75/hr.
Labor if you watch $100/hr
Labor if you help $150/hr

Dont forget: Labor if you worked on it first, $200/hr

[slider701]

Don't forget guys............most men refuse to look at the instructions or directions until something is completely f'ed up or they are beyond lost. A do-it-yourself kit will not be much different.....keep assembling it until the crank doesn't spin without a 3 foot prybar on the end of it.........then call Keith at 2am asking him to diagnose it over the phone.

Early in my career at Ford I worked on the Ford Technical Hotline where we helped dealer techs diagnose and repair cars over the phone. We took 2000 calls a day from ASE Master Certified mechanics who were lost trying to fix something. 98% of the time it was because they just didn't spend the time to read the manual because they thought they had known what they were doing.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

G. Forget all the creative ideas about seminars, sleep-overs, satellite offices, hand-holdings etc. I think your intent is to have less to do with the customer-the suggesters don't get that. They want to be at your supper table....

No, you don't have to take me home for dinner. BUT... I would expect a good three days of work, three hours in the morning and another three or so hours in the afternoon, along with a long lunch. Put me up in a decent hotel; doesn't have to be fancy -- dinner I can handle on my own. During the day hit all the basics on the build but also highlight the "obscure" points that my FE has, like that goofy oil plug behind the distributor, along with fun trivia like the jiggle plug, along with an outline of the most commonly made FE mistakes. Entertain me with a few war stories, examples of the stupid things customers have done, etc. and I would feel quite comfortable in bumping a $15k FE build up to a $20k price tag. Most of us would be doing this for the fun of it; most of us are not not going to rebuild an FE, nor are we going to go in to the engine building business.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

No, you don't have to take me home for dinner. BUT... I would expect a good three days of work, three hours in the morning and another three or so hours in the afternoon, along with a long lunch. Put me up in a decent hotel; doesn't have to be fancy -- dinner I can handle on my own. During the day hit all the basics on the build but also highlight the "obscure" points that my FE has, like that goofy oil plug behind the distributor, along with fun trivia like the jiggle plug, along with an outline of the most commonly made FE mistakes. Entertain me with a few war stories, examples of the stupid things customers have done, etc. and I would feel quite comfortable in bumping a $15k FE build up to a $20k price tag. Most of us would be doing this for the fun of it; most of us are not not going to rebuild an FE, nor are we going to go in to the engine building business.

Keith-SEE WHAT I MEAN?????????

Thanks Pat ol' buddy-right on time!