Oil discussion

[ERA Chas]

Came across this post and reply on a Mazda forum and though I'd present it for thought or discussion. It's well written and lucid by both parties and there's no head-banging or empirical statements involved. Refreshingly, they're not 'ricers'.

I did not post this to commence yet another 'battle of experts' or convert anybody from their preferences. I just haven't seen this expressed this way in any of our oil 'discussions'. (Being polite).

The one poster owns a MazdaSpeed 3 (138" turbo-263HP), the other a modified 120" Evo with 25 PSI of boost. And yes they're both OHC engines as opposed to our pushrods but they're highly stressed (near 2 HP/CI with big heat loads) as opposed to our 1 to approximate 1.4HP/CI motors.

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Quote Originally Posted by DailyDriver View Post

I'm still a bit confused about how one can "like" one oil better than another, and what the "noticeable" differences are? I've used lots of different oils over the years in lots of different cars, I've always done my own oil changes, I've always driven these cars "before and after" the oil changes and put lots of miles on them, etc... I never "noticed" anything different from oil to oil.

As well I never really had any specific "preference" for a specific oil... it all looks and feels pretty much the same when you pour it into the crankcase. I suppose if I had some thorough unbiased reliable detailed test data "proving" that one oil was truly "better" than another (in terms of its lubrication properties, durability, etc), then I'd want the "better" one... other than that, I don't see how it is possible for one to develop a "preference", unless it's just a matter of being influenced by marketing and hearsay. This is not in any way meant to be a "diss" to anyone, I'm just trying to understand why some have oil preferences, at least when not quoting accurate, reliable test data.

In the meantime, I've been using Mobil 1 in my Corvette because that's what the owner's manual calls for. Is it better or worse than anything else? I really don't know. When in doubt, I like to follow the owner's manual though, in most cases you can't go wrong. Since I stocked up on a lot of Mobil 1, I'm using it in the MS3 now also... "seems" just fine. But of course, that statement doesn't really mean anything... all I know is that I pour the oil into the crankcase, the engine runs fine, period. Maybe it's the best oil in the world, maybe it's horrible. I'd have no basis to show or prove one way or the other.

I guess if I tear my engine down at 200k miles and the internals are still in excellent condition, that would show the oil was good. I've sold a lot of cars with over 150k miles, never had an internal engine problem, never burned oil, engines still tight, good performance, no sludge, etc... based on my past experiences, I can say with full confidence that basic old-school "dino" oil served me just fine, as I look back I wouldn't have done anything any differently, there would have been no need. But... none of these cars were turbos, so... I actually AM more interested in running a decent synthetic in the MS3 specifically due to the turbo.... apparently it can get awfully hot, so you need an oil that will not break down too easily in a high heat situation."

" You can do oil analysis which will show breakdowns of what kinds of metals are wearing in the engine etc. I get less wear using Amsoil compared to other synethic oils in my evo (2.0L turbo).

"Mobil 1 is all right, but they're not the best - they're not fully synthetic as their labeling suggests. I felt the same as you, I pretty much thought it was all the same, and I trusted Mobil 1 as that's what the dealer used, what the manual recommended. But I actually and sincerely noticed the car running smoother, maybe 1% quicker, better mpg with Amsoil. The lubrication is just way better, allows the motor to run better. And I always say, at least try it once - If you don't like it you can always go back, no harm done.

For some people its not worth the cost.. for me, I drove my Evo daily, tuned at 25psi etc, and I never had an issue. I loved having just that tiny bit extra of peace of mind.
I will say for most people, yea it might not be worth it. For those who are really particular/anal about their cars, it's worth it for sure. "

[Three Peaks]

Every time I see this discussion I have to wonder if I'm missing something? I've used dino oil for all of my driving life and I've driven some fairly fast cars and driven them pretty hard. I've also owned a number of trucks for towing, hauling, etc... and never really babied them either.

Dino oil has always served me just fine and all the hype I'm hearing about synthetic oils just hasn't really swayed me from my own empirical evidence and that of my friends using dino oils for the 42 years I've been driving, working on cars, and changing my own oil.

Now that zinc is a consideration in some of my engines, I do search for it in the oils I buy or use an additive but that still hasn't convinced me that the new synthetic oils are worth the additional cost. Hearing somebody say that their car runs "just a little bit better" with synthetic oils doesn't strike me as empirical evidence.

I know you can run the synthetics longer in your engine without them breaking down, but I'm not sure I would like to have any oil in my engine for more than 4000 miles regardless and most of the dino oils these days are so good you can go that long with them.

So, when it comes to synthetics, how much is hype and how much can be proven to be worth the additional cost- besides "helping you sleep better at night"? I sleep just fine, thank you....


I'll go get some popcorn now.....

Bob

[MaSnaka]

I had a 1986 Toyota truck with a 4 cylinder engine. I believe the recomended oil change interval was 7500 miles. This was a work truck that hauled material and tools everywhere it went. LA stop and go traffic to wide open fwy driving. I owned that truck for 14 years and logged atleast 300K miles on it. I was never anal about the oil changes. I did use Castrol non-synthetic 20-40 and tried to stay on top of the scheduled changes but would let the miles between changes sometimes go 10, 12 or 15K miles and sometimes even running low. The truck was still running strong when I sold it. Never had an internal engine failure while it was mine. Brakes, clutches and alternaters yes but the truck ran like a champ. I never worried too much about it and wonder how much of the 3000 mile oil change is a marketing ploy of our oil companies and service centers to sell more oil and get your car in for services.

John

[madmaxx]

Most of our engines see stresses well in excess of any boosted engines. The difference is those engines are overhead cams, our old pushrod require massive spring pressures depending on cam profile, throw in roller lifters (more mass) and we are running 400lb plus open and 150 plus seat. I bet the overhead cams are in the range of 80lb seat and 130 open. The wear we suffer on pushrods, rocker arms and camshafts.

Regardless of your oil, regardless of your set up, throw in some redline break in additive and get the zinc and phosphorous to about 1300 ppm. I would much rather have the cheapest dino oil and the additive than the most expensive synthetic (excep RP XRP $15.00 per quart it has 1400 ppm of zinc/phosphours) than synthetic.

[ERA Chas]

You guys seem to agree with the quoted poster above.

[mdross1]

The best approach at times is a very simplistic one,if you can live with it.Personally have always wanted to know all there is to know about products before they are used in my pride and joys.Like to read scientific papers from independent testing facilities hoping to eliminate bias towards products.In the end the effort is always worth the time spent,other peoples opinions are just that.

[Ant]

I used Castrol RS in my BBC LS7 Cobra and it was better at maintaining oil pressure at race temperatures exceeding 260F compared to mineral oil and some semi synthetic race oils this is from the hot temperature perspective.

I think it best to follow the manufacturers/engine builders recommendation and a good way for me to go is my 600bhp plus engine has been dynoed on Delo 400 mineral oil and will do some med to fast road miles on a fresh batch for 300 miles, then I will use semi synthetic Schaeffer race oil for the track!

I dont think you can do any harm with a full synthetic and if you run a flat tappet then add some zinc additive as some oils have less than needed. I keep wanting to put the best special oil in my engine irrespective of cost but I keep seeing the race guys keeping it simple and run a good quality semi synthetic or mineral oil and change it often.

[bobcowan]

You hear/read 3 basic statements on just about every board:

1. I run synthetics, and it feels faster
2. I run dino oil, and it runs fine

These statements are subjective, biased, and completly without merit to anyone who has a scientific bent.

3. I do periodic UOA's and I learned ......

This is where the money is. Facts and data, proof and disproof. The real deal. For example, I learned semi-synthetic Mobile1 will not last 5,000 miles in my Harley. But Valvoline Blue dino oil lasts a long time in my Cummins TD.

I pretty much ignore statements #1 and #2. But I pay carefull attention to #3.

[WardL]

I'm with BobCowan. When you hear: "But I actually and sincerely noticed the car running smoother, maybe 1% quicker, better mpg with Amsoil." Yes, the guy THINKS he can tell a difference, but he REALLY can't (in my opinion, I'm not believing him). It is human nature, we all fool ourselves in many ways everyday. The lube oil companies measure performance in environmentally controlled laboratories and look for small improvements over 100,000s miles. Consumers can only listen to the sales pitch and buy what they like to hear. Don't you think Chevy gets a kickback by recommending Mobil 1? Of course they do. Is it the best oil for your Corvette? Probably so if it keeps the warranty intact. Any good quality oil will work fine in our many engines. We will all have a much higher frequency of failure for other things than poor choice of lube oil. I always recommend buying whatever you want that makes YOU feel the best. That applies to oil, gasoline, cars, TVs and many other things.

[joyridin']

On a turbo car, synthetic can make a huge difference due to the coking point being a lot higher. The bearings int he turbo won't fry when you shut down the engine.

As for the Mobil 1 not being true synthetic, he's full of it. It is true synthetic oil just like the Amsoil. He can feel it being faster? LOL...sure.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

3. I do periodic UOA's and I learned ......
semi-synthetic Mobile1 will not last 5,000 miles in my Harley. But Valvoline Blue dino oil lasts a long time in my Cummins TD.
.

Agreed that the evidence of UOAs is the most significant.

You're using the term (..the oil) "lasts" a long time. But is it not possible that the Harley puts fuel contamination in the oil and the diesel does not? That would be true of any brand or type of oil you use-synthetic or not. Did the UOA say something like that for you to use the term "lasts"?

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

On a turbo car, synthetic can make a huge difference due to the coking point being a lot higher. The bearings int he turbo won't fry when you shut down the engine.

As for the Mobil 1 not being true synthetic, he's full of it. It is true synthetic oil just like the Amsoil. He can feel it being faster? LOL...sure.

That's the big advantage of synthetic oils - heat management. A true synthetic can handle a lot more heat for a longer period of time. Sometimes that's an important feature, most times it's not.

M1 is not a true synthetic, unless you're using 20W50 motorcycle oil - about $15 a qt. Standard M1 start with a dino oil, and then is highly refined.

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Agreed that the evidence of UOAs is the most significant.

You're using the term (..the oil) "lasts" a long time. But is it not possible that the Harley puts fuel contamination in the oil and the diesel does not? That would be true of any brand or type of oil you use-synthetic or not. Did the UOA say something like that for you to use the term "lasts"?

The UOA measures the additive package - among other things. When the additives run out, it's time to change the oil. The additives are used up by things like heat cycles, total heat, fuel and water contamination, etc.

This is the latest UOA for my Cummins turbo diesel. I use Valvoline Premium Blue CJ diesel oil - a straight dino oil:

ROBERT: This oil run lasted a little over 6,000 miles and wear for the most part read around averages.
Copper read a little higher than average, and may show excess wear at a brass/bronze part. While 28 ppm
is above average, copper's wear rate (ppm/mile) is still much better than we saw in the last two samples.
The oil was in good shape physically, containing no fuel or coolant. Insolubles, which are oxidized solids
caused by heat, use, and blow-by, read low at 0.4%, showing good oil filtration. The TBN read strong at 7.0,
lot of active additive left. Try 7,500 miles next.

[Don]

" Don't you think Chevy gets a kickback by recommending Mobil 1? "

I always wondered what the connection was between Chevy/Corvette and Mobil 1. Even the engine oil fill cap specifies the use of Mobil 1. The Owner's Manual specifies the use of Mobil 1 with the added clause: " Your vehicle's engine requires a special oil meeting GM Standard GM4718M " along with: " NOTICE: If you use oils that don't have the GM4718M Standard designation, you can cause engine damage not covered by your warranty "

Have never checked other synthetic oils, might Mobil1 be the only oil that meets the GM4718M standard and Mobil/GM arrived at the standard together ?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

The TBN read strong at 7.0,
lot of active additive left. Try 7,500 miles next.

What does 'TBN' mean?-a sort of additive index?

[RallySnake]

I like Mobil One and use it in my other cars, but not in the Cobra. I cannot find 20/50 any more and the thinner 10/30 combined with the synthetic properties makes it "blow by" the piston rings and leak out the seals on my "antique" engine. I am having much better performance with the Shell Rotella 10/40. It runs just as good and doesn't leak everywhere. The oil pressure is much better, too.

I believe that it continues to have zinc in it which helps with that camshaft wear issue.

RS

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

What does 'TBN' mean?-a sort of additive index?

Total Base Number for additives. Click here: http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do-i-need-a-tbn.php

[ERA Chas]

Thanks pal...

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by RallySnake

I like Mobil One and use it in my other cars, but not in the Cobra. I cannot find 20/50 any more and the thinner 10/30 combined with the synthetic properties makes it "blow by" the piston rings and leak out the seals on my "antique" engine. ...."

RS

have you tried the Mobil 1 15w-50 ? I've used it in big blocks in the past without any issues. Currently am using it in my Hi-Po small block. So far 43,000 miles over 9 years, no leaks and no measurable wear. It has plenty of zinc too.


Z.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by RallySnake

I am having much better performance with the Shell Rotella 10/40. It runs just as good and doesn't leak everywhere. The oil pressure is much better, too.

I believe that it continues to have zinc in it which helps with that camshaft wear issue.

RS

Diesel oils are all CJ now. I havn't been able to find a CI oil anywhere. The Cj oils have about 25% less zinc in them, because newer diesel engines have a cat. So it doesn't have the zinc a flat tappet cam really needs.

If you have flat tappets, you need to find something that has high zinc levels, like Brad Penn or RP XP. Or use a zinc additive.

My diesel engine has flat tappets, so it gets 2 bottles of Comp Cams break in additive with every 12 qt oil change. The cobra uses standard Royal Purple, and gets one bottle for every 11 qt oil change.

[Scufty]

K ..I have a question for all of you? Have you ever heard of a "oil related breakdown" and I don't mean "I lost a lobe during my Cam break in and I think it was the oil I was using" (because I don't believe that either ) I mean a TRUE oil related breakdown? I just have to think that everyone has this oil thing blown way out of proportion? If you use a good oil and change it often enough I don't see any reason to run anything but? Most of these engines we are running are 40 years old and they ran just fine with the oil that was available at that time? OIL RELATED BREAKDOWN? enlighten me please? thanks