Drag race - Kirkham 65 side-oiler vs Ferrari 458 italia

[tommygold]

STL - Thanks so much. Sounds like you think that the two cars are pretty well matched themselves. And I guess it doesn't matter exactly what engine he has in there, or can you already tell what that is? -Tom

[RodKnock]

I'm kinda curious about your friend's "sideoiler." Is it an actual original from the 60's or 70's sideoiler or is it an aftermarket cast iron or aluminum sideoiler with a block from Genesis or Pond. Also, has this sideoiler been stroked to larger cubes like 468, 482, 511 or 527?

Is it an early built Kirkham with the original-type suspension and brakes or a later Kirkham with all the billet aluminum and Wilwood brakes?

Lastly, what's his rear end gear ratio? 3.42, 3.54 or other?

[Ron Scarboro]

Originally Posted by STL Mark

Practice - that's the key. Timing, shifting, launching, staying in it the whole way, cutting a light, not spinning the tires - all practice. For either of you - whomever gets the most (and best) practice runs in will have the best chance. It's the driver that wins.

Honestly, for the Ferrari driver it isn't. That car like my GT-R is idiot proof. For my GT-R it is:
1. Toggle tranny, suspension and traction control to race
2. Mash brake
3. Floor gas pedal , engine will rev to 3,500rpm
4. Release brake - I Slip brake foot to left until brake pedal pops up
5. Steer in a straight line and keep gas pedal floored (until I run out of courage). Car does the rest. Shifts, compensates for road slippage, etc.

0-60 in 3.6-3.9 sec
0-100 in 9.2-9.5 sec

Again and again. Also my GT-R shifts in .018 sec and his Ferrari is faster.

If I were the Ferrari owner I wouldn't practice and risk tearing something up. Just show up and make the 2 passes (assume best of 3 - 2 is all it'll take). Cash check, go home.

[tommygold]

Hi RK. I sent him a text message to ask. The honest (sad) answer is that he may not know. -Tom

[tommygold]

I think RS has it right, though I do need to practice a few times with launch control. It's so sickly automated on the 458. But the bet is that I have to win all 3, so not false starting is critical. For that reason, I'll do non-launch control practice starts to learn how drag racing starts work. Thanks.

[David Janowic]

Originally Posted by tommygold

I wonder if you all could help settle another debate for us. When he first proposed the bet (it was him, not me), he said that he had a "65 Shelby Cobra." It was only after we made the bet that he explained that it was a Kirkham -- I guess with the original engine, and registered as a 65. In ordinary parlance -- as opposed to this specialized community, where such a detail is critical -- is it fair to call his car a "65 Shelby Cobra"? Thanks.

Yes this is fair, everyone refers to the kirkhams/kits/csx cars as 65 shelby cobras, or A/C cobras. If you just say its a cobra, or a kirkham cobra, only a fraction of a percent of the population will have any idea what you are talking about. I had a kirkham and the first and most annoying question after the 700th time you are asked is what kind of car is that? One other question, if i can arrange for a drag strip and a friend of mine with a kirkham cobra to race you would you let me take 20,000 of your bet? Last question, how much are you betting?

[CobraEd]

Is it ok for him to throw on a set of Drag Radials???


.

[tommygold]

Hi David. I'd be worried racing another Cobra without knowing a good bit more about whether I'm a dog. With my friend, I know he doesn't know the car and doesn't know how to race. Our bet is for a lot, lot, lot more than 20.

Hi CEd. He is stuck with the slicks. But ironically, he thinks they are his big advantage. Is that just wrong?

Best, Tom

[Mark Thompson]

Let's see, a clueless person in a Kirkham vs the most highly automated automotive missile ever....

The Kirkham driver as everyone knows will have his hands full every foot of the way. The Ferrari driver has to remember to wait for the light to change, push the correct pedal, and squeeze the right paddle twice at the rev limit. It is obvious which car will win.

btw, I heard some automotive bigotry in the commentary. I love my Kirkham, have never driven an Italia, but the F430 is every bit as engrossing and charismatic a car as a well done "Cobra", particularly in spider form. You all should try one.

Mark

[tommygold]

Ok, I learned a little more. It's a Shelby 427 carbourated sideoiler. It does have willow wood breaks, which came standard. He doesn't know the gear ratios. -Tom

[slider701]

Can the 458 be bought in a "Man-Version", with three pedals and a real shifter??

I fully understand and appreciate the 458 for it's modern sophistication and it's sexiness that is second only to a 427 cobra, but for pure driving pleasure and homage to the Ferrari heritage they should sell one version with 3 pedals and a shifter.

[Hotfingrs]

If you and your Ferrari ever get to Ohio, look me up, I'll go 2 out of 3 with you.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by tommygold
I wonder if you all could help settle another debate for us. When he first proposed the bet (it was him, not me), he said that he had a "65 Shelby Cobra." It was only after we made the bet that he explained that it was a Kirkham -- I guess with the original engine, and registered as a 65. In ordinary parlance -- as opposed to this specialized community, where such a detail is critical -- is it fair to call his car a "65 Shelby Cobra"? Thanks.

Ok, I learned a little more. It's a Shelby 427 carbourated sideoiler. It does have willow wood breaks, which came standard. He doesn't know the gear ratios. -Tom

If it's truly a "Shelby 427" engine, it is based on a Shelby made 427 block which is not technically a sideoiler.
And no - it is not accurate to call it a '65 Shelby Cobra simply because it isn't one. It is a quality product and arguably the finest Cobra replication (or REal?) ever produced, but it isn't a '65 and it isn't a Shelby.

The brakes are Willwoods - real willow wood brakes would exhibit way too much fade - not to mention smoke . Cobras are old school, but c'mon - not THAT old!

Sounds like your buddy is not much of a car guy or he'd know more about his Cobra. He's gonna lose unless you really mess up. It's going to be a huge hoot though, so please keep us in the loop!

If the unthinkable happens and he does smoke you, we promise to help you pick out a suitable Cobra, assuming you can still afford one after losing the bet!

[rodneym]

tommygold,

What Ferrari site are you chatting on about this race?
My search on Google was fruitless (Ferrari Italia 458 Kirkham Cobra drag race).
I'd love to read what Ferraristi are saying about it.

Thanks

[David Janowic]

Originally Posted by tommygold

Hi David. I'd be worried racing another Cobra without knowing a good bit more about whether I'm a dog. With my friend, I know he doesn't know the car and doesn't know how to race. Our bet is for a lot, lot, lot more than 20.

Hi CEd. He is stuck with the slicks. But ironically, he thinks they are his big advantage. Is that just wrong?

Best, Tom

I am not talking about racing my friend for money, just as practice. And I want to bet the 20k on you vs the cobra not on my friend. I'm saying in exchange for setting u up with a race with a comparable car so you build your confidence i would like to get in on your bet. And fyi slicks will be an advantage not a disadvantage, why do you think everyone who ever races cars does so on slicks? This being said slicks or not he has no shot.

[4pipes]

The Italia only comes with the F1 transmission, no manual. I drove one two weeks ago.........fast, but not involving.

Originally Posted by slider701

Can the 458 be bought in a "Man-Version", with three pedals and a real shifter??

I fully understand and appreciate the 458 for it's modern sophistication and it's sexiness that is second only to a 427 cobra, but for pure driving pleasure and homage to the Ferrari heritage they should sell one version with 3 pedals and a shifter.

[Excaliber]

The comments about "20 miles" on the car are miss understood. It was clarified earlier he has 20 LAS VEGAS miles on the car after the move from California. He may be more experienced than some think.

Nitrous: Why not? No cheating there. Ferrari got traction control. No limits I say, run what ya brung.

Wrinkle wall slicks is his only hope, that will help equalize the traction control. No wrinkle wall slicks? He aint gotta chance.

Ron Scarboro says his GTR run's...

0-100 in 9.2-9.5 sec

Pffftt, my ERA does a 100 mph in 7.98 seconds, on street tires, with a slow hole shot, uphill, on wet pavement. Lets race! Actually, that's true, I really have done a 100 mph in 7.98. What is also true is I'm not sure I WANT to race against a GTR, they are very impressive!

Twin Turbo FFR runs low 10 in Medford.
I was THERE that night, ran my ERA, as did several other Cobras. Traction was terrible, nobody could hook up worth a darn. WITH a decent track, that night, Twin Turbo would have been in the 9's, NO doubt in my mind.
He, like me, couldn't get decent traction until somewhere around 80-85 mph.

[mr0077]

Well, Tommy, As could be expected, Panorama Towers is guard-gated, and they wouldn't let me in to look at the car. I left a note for the guard put on the windshield and got a call from the front desk that said they can't leave the note on the car (against policy); she said she tried to find out who owns the car, but could find no information on it. If he wouldn't mind, ask your friend to call me at 702/218-2439, and maybe we could meet at the Towers to check out his car, or just talk cars...

Another tip on drag racing is the obvious, reaction time at the line. If you snooze for half a second, you will lose this race (if the other driver doesn't go up in smoke or miss a shift).

[Dimis]

You'd hope that with nearly 50 years of advancement in Italian design & engineering, including access to F1 materials and info, and at about $150K more, that Italy's best, the 458, will do the business.
Especially against a car that has been beaten out of metal by hand.


Question:
Who wins when the Kirkham breaches its lane, crosses over and drives right into the 458?




Don't for get to wear your seat-belts.

[Keithc8]

It does not sound like you guys give this guy in the Kirkham much chance which I do not understand.
Good luck to him and time will tell.

Keith