Drag race - Kirkham 65 side-oiler vs Ferrari 458 italia

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Blitz,

Your motor probably makes around 750 HP on an engine dyno with open headers. The sidepipes on these things are actually very inefficient in spite of how loud they are.

There have been a number of members here who have dynoed their high horsepower cars with and without the sidepipe mufflers. The usual power loss from the mufflers is in the 100 to 150 HP range.

Kevin

Let's not get carried away here. Does Dan's Kirkham have the new Cammer heads? How many 482's have dyno'ed at 750 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of. How many 482's have been dyno'ed over 700 HP? Zero, that I'm aware of.

Gary Sharapa has written that his Cobra with a Keith Craft 496 and a SOLID ROLLER cam made 523 rear wheel HP, 681 HP at the flywheel.

http://clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107770

What cam and heads does Dan have on his Kirkham? If the shop claims 550 rear wheel HP, then what the heck is in there?

[Excaliber]

Take another look at Twin Turbo's U-Tube of his drag race in Medford, Oregon. NOTE that every run his opponent got the hole shot on him! That has also been my experience. And yet, in the end, Twin Tubo over took for the win. Running VERY LOW 10.03 and yet loosing the hole shot everytime? A classic Cobra conundrum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQtmrxaRVTg

[392cobra]

Originally Posted by otomix

The engine and all components have not been changed / are the same as when Dan purchased the car. The engine is designated a Ford 427 authentic FE Alloy Shelby 510, with TKO 6000 Trans. The good luck for Dan, (as he had no idea of the build sheet) is he does not have an typical 427 or 482. Fun fact, the car 0 - 60 time was 3sec - and clocked 160+mph once and felt on the edge of air borne- I then sold the car.. KC built the motor and he is has agreed to be silent until after the race (if there is one). I will tell you from my in-depth study - he is the BEST and a first class gentlemen...

..

Rod,
Looks to me like he has a 510".

[750hp]

Is the race decided by who gets the win light, or who posts the fastest time of the run? I might have missed this in the mountain of replies so far, but it seems to me that someone with little or no experience with staging and how the tree works could either:
Redlight (instant win to the opponent), or
Wait for the lights to turn green, THEN start to accelerate. This would give someone with more experience and a better reaction time a car length right from the start.

Remember, the time that shows on the timeslip is the actual time from when you start to accelerate through to the finish. The reaction time isn't included in this time.
I'd LOVE to hear the excuses if one guy runs a quicker time but gets to the end of the track second and loses the race because he was slower in the reaction time!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by 392cobra

Rod,
Looks to me like he has a 510".

Sorry, I missed that post somehow.

Never mind.

[csx4910]

I am curious on the weight question since I also dont know how much my glass csx weighs if Kirkham and or shelby in my case has a posted weight on their rollers. I know the weight of my engine and tranny but not the roller itself and I am curious how my glass csx compares weight wise to the alloy kirkham.
Ron

[RodKnock]

Ron,

Here's an old thread. Tough to figure out, but near as I can figure, the Kirkham weighs about 2,150 lbs, with an all aluminum engine and the CSX is about 150 +/- lbs more with the same type of engine.

Shelby vs a Kirkham (aluminum)

FWIW, my Kirkham weighed in at 2,128 lbs.

[RodKnock]

OK can the next piece of information leaked to everyone be what type of cam Dan's engine has?

Solid or hydraulic roller? If hydraulic, then the RPM's will be over by 6,200-ish. Solid roller on the other hand....

[Excaliber]

It's a KC motor, it's almost a sure bet he has a hydraulic roller. Which is great for maximum tire smoke at low rpm,,, if that's what you want.

It would also be unlikely a motor THAT big, 510 cid, would be a high rpm motor. I'm thinking, 6,000 max, 5,800 more reasonable.

If hydraulic, then the RPM's will be over by 6,200-ish

Wait, have you got that backwards? Hydraulic roller is typically lower rpm cam than a solid, and without the exotic lifters and such is generally limited to 5,800-6,000. A solid roller is a high rpm application, not likely with the MASSIVE stroke of a 510. But's it a KC motor, who knows what kind of magic he has wrought on that puppy!

Solid roller might be good for around 7,000. No way you would crank a 510 THAT high,,, would you? Man, that would be crazy!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

It's a KC motor, it's almost a sure bet he has a hydraulic roller. Which is great for maximum tire smoke at low rpm,,, if that's what you want.

It would also be unlikely a motor THAT big, 510 cid, would be a high rpm motor. I'm thinking, 6,000 max, 5,800 more reasonable.


Wait, have you got that backwards? Hydraulic roller is typically lower rpm cam than a solid, and without the exotic lifters and such is generally limited to 5,800-6,000. A solid roller is a high rpm application, not likely with the MASSIVE stroke of a 510. But's it a KC motor, who knows what kind of magic he has wrought on that puppy!

Solid roller might be good for around 7,000. No way you would crank a 510 THAT high,,, would you? Man, that would be crazy!

You're kidding right? If you search the FE Forum you'll see big cubes and solid rollers:

Here's a solid roller 511ci Shelby block engine by Barry R. making 787 HP at 7,000 RPM:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182...dyno+pull+data

Jay Brown from the FE Forum:

"My 585" SOHC cheats this little recipe by using EFI, but it idles at around 750 RPM and runs on pump gas with 13:1 compression and 285 @ .050", with about .740" gross valve lift. Due to the differences in rocker ratio this duration at .050" is about equivalent to 273 @ .050" from a regular FE wedge cam. This engine peaks at 935 HP at 6600 RPM, but stays over 900 HP through 7500. So I think that your proposed engine would need more duration to peak around 7200 RPM in HP (although maybe not if you kept the cubes around 500). Head flow on my SOHC with the raised ports is around 450 @ .800" lift.

Jay Brown
1969 R Code Mach 1, Drag Week 2005 Winner BB/NA with 511" FE(10.60s @ 129), Drag Week 2007 Runner Up BB/PA with 490" Supercharged FE (9.35 @ 151)
1964 Ford Galaxie, Drag Week 2009 Winner Modified NA with 585" SOHC (9.50s @ 143)
1968 Shelby GT 500 Convertible, 492" 667 HP FE
2005 Ford GT, 2006 Drag Week Winner, 12.0 Daily Driver
1969 Ford Galaxie XL, 460 (Ho Hum....)"


Big cubes and high RPM's are more common than you think.

FYI, my Crower billet hydraulic roller cam can rev to 6,200+, but max HP comes at 5,800 RPM if I remember correctly.

[tommygold]

Wow, I haven't understood any of the last 10 or so posts, which is all to the good. Great site to transfer technical information. I do know that the poll keeps getting closer and closer, ironically as it looks like Dan's car has more and more capacity.

[Excaliber]

Nope, not kidding!! I didn't say you couldn't, but it aint normal by a long shot. Your taking a BIG risk slinging "heavy metal" 500 cid engines to 7,000 rpm. ANY such motor will be a seriously "race prepared", money is no object build.

You cite ONE (or two) examples of a BIG cube SOHC motor (not common) where the horse power peaked at 6,600 rpm. Still, pretty darn high for a big cube motor. There are no rpm's listed for the other, mostly DEDICATED drag race only examples of big cube motors.

Would YOU turn a 510 cid motor to 7,000 rpm? Not likely any of us mere mortals will ever have a motor that big capable of that kind of rpm. WHO would build such a motor, that would acutally survive? It's a short list, put Barry R and KC on it.

Would Blitz have such a motor?? Well hell yeah, Blitz might.

Tommy,
I frequent a few other technical forums, THIS forum is about as deep as any EVER get when it comes to technical stuff and serious gear head talk. You will see the best of the best when it comes to cars around these parts.

...a lot of these guys are way over my head!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Nope, not kidding!! I didn't say you couldn't, but it aint normal by a long shot. Your taking a BIG risk slinging "heavy metal" 500 cid engines to 7,000 rpm. ANY such motor will be a seriously "race prepared", money is no object build.

You cite ONE example of a BIG cube SOHC motor (not common) where the horse power peaked at 6,600 rpm. Still, pretty darn high for a big cube motor. There are no rpm's listed for the other, mostly DEDICATED drag race only examples of big cube motors.

Would YOU turn a 510 cid motor to 7,000 rpm? Not likely any of us mere mortals will ever have a motor that big capable of that kind of rpm. WHO would build such a motor, that would acutally survive? It's a short list, put Barry R and KC on it.

Would Blitz have such a motor?? Well hell yeah, Blitz might.

Tommy,
I frequent a few other technical forums, THIS forum is about as deep as any EVER get when it comes to technical stuff and serious gear head talk. You will see the best of the best when it comes to cars around these parts.

I cited two examples, but there are many others on the FE Forum.

Yes, I would build such an engine and I may one day. I have a Shelby block capable of 527ci reasonably easy. There are now a plethora of stroker engines and parts available today that weren't available just several years ago. But Chevys have been doing this for years and years. I had a 540ci engine in my old Vette over a decade ago that was shifted at 6,500+ RPM's a lot.

I'll sling Dan's 510 at 6,000-7,000 RPM, but I don't think he'll let me.

[decooney]

Aside from all the horsepower and engine spec talk, Tires, Track Temperature, and the ability to get traction off the line are going to be key factors for both cars, I would think.

[Excaliber]

Well that's certainly true Duane, but that 3 second's to 60 mph shows some serious potential. Gotta wonder what kind of tires were in play when that time was recorded?

It sure would be nice if someone could give us a clue what kind of rpm this monster is capable of. Come on,,, just one little clue!

[RodKnock]

From an old Otomix post:

"The elite Cobra to own, Professional built, advanced fit - finish - detail and
(32k) 511 SHELBY Alum, 2 four tunnel port 720hp by KCP. 5 speed tremic, polished stainless side pipes, all Kirkham extras (non stainless chassis). 500 hrs polished body, many extras plus original 1960s amber Ray Dots, Billboards, fire system+polished bottle. And more, will offer to good home @ $110.000.00.."

[tin-man]

[quote=RodKnock;1109241]

Originally Posted by tin-man

What facts? Other than Tommy Goldstein being a sought-after attorney, of course. The rest is opinion and speculation, just like my words on the matter.

If you look past the inherent traction issues, the lack of experience with his Cobra, stuff breaking (balancer-see Patrickt's thread on his balancer breaking) at the wrong time, sync'ing dual quads, then I really think Dan will do just fine.

.

Fact is we don't know really a hellova about about Dans engine but it keeps coming out that he's got more than was originally described or what we thought, and that's a fact. Other than that, Dan will win at least one race and that's all he needs. IMHO. Pre-race hype and positioning to the contrary.


John, AKA, tin-man

[decooney]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Well that's certainly true Duane, but that 3 second's to 60 mph shows some serious potential. Gotta wonder what kind of tires were in play when that time was recorded?

It sure would be nice if someone could give us a clue what kind of rpm this monster is capable of. Come on,,, just one little clue!

e.g. E, my thought is if the Cobra guy with say 600+hp runs the Billboard tires (I tried those at the strip twice - ugh, not great), and the Ferrari runs a modern street-race type tire, its going to make for two races in one; one race at the start and another race that will develop from the 3/4 point to the finish line. Do we know what rear tire type and size the Cobra owner is going to run for sure?

>>> Spinnin' aint winnin!

[RodKnock]

[quote=tin-man;1109405]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

.

Fact is we don't know really a hellova about about Dans engine but it keeps coming out that he's got more than was originally described or what we thought, and that's a fact. Other than that, Dan will win at least one race and that's all he needs. IMHO. Pre-race hype and positioning to the contrary.


John, AKA, tin-man

And it appears that 56% in the poll agree with you and say that the Ferrari will lose at least one race. I just happen to disagree. Although I will admit that Dan's engine has gone from 600+ HP (I always thought it was at least a 482) engine to 720 HP from 511ci.

I'll stay with my original vote for one of the most technologically advanced cars in the world, with launch control and F1-inspired transmission, but it's certainly getting closer.

Solid roller cam or not? Inquiring minds want to know.

[tkb289]

Originally Posted by tommygold

Wow, I haven't understood any of the last 10 or so posts, which is all to the good. Great site to transfer technical information. I do know that the poll keeps getting closer and closer, ironically as it looks like Dan's car has more and more capacity.

Tom ...

You can see that there are a lot of passionate and knowledgeable Cobra guys around here and the race between you and Blitz has certainly elicited a lot of interest and speculation.

There are so many different factors involved that could tip the balance one way or another and engaging in 'bench racing' is a lot of fun.

Hope the contest is as good as this thread ... and that you and Dan have a safe race.