Drag race - Kirkham 65 side-oiler vs Ferrari 458 italia

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by csx4910

I am curious on the weight question since I also dont know how much my glass csx weighs if Kirkham and or shelby in my case has a posted weight on their rollers. I know the weight of my engine and tranny but not the roller itself and I am curious how my glass csx compares weight wise to the alloy kirkham.
Ron

My glass csx weighs 2600lbs with an old school iron block/heads 427FE in it, 2/3 tank of gas. Sorry if someone already answered this for you. I have been tardy for a few days and am still about 800 pages behind on this very entertaining thread......

[dcdoug]

Hey Tommy,

Wish I could join you and our CACC boys on Tues at the track. I have a 427 S/O and Billboards, not as light or as high HP as Blitz's, but could have given you a benchmark of sorts. Take vids pls!

[Mdman352]

What gets you to the finish line first??? Torque or horsepower???
Does it matter if a motor makes 600 horsepower at 5800 rpm or 7200 rpm???

[Excaliber]

How much experiance with hydraulic rollers do you actually have?

Enough to know:
5,800 to 6,200 rpm is "common" for hydraulic roller cam. Anything above that rpm is not "common". There are a few examples, here and there, of high dollar motors equiped with the newest light weight hydraulic valve train components that can do higher. But not many.

Even with a solid roller cam, I'd think twice before I ran a FE style 510 cid to 7,000!

Z06, is not common.
Dedicated drag race motors, are not common.
BBC in Cobras, are not common.
SOHC, is not common.

Can ANYONE post an example of a 500+ cid FE style motor (Shelby, Dove, Side Oiler, etc.) spinning 7,000 rpm with HYDRAULIC ROLLERS? If so, that is one RARE motor (and KC built it).

The original question was: Can BLITZ turn 7,000 with his 510 cid KC motor? The answer depends on several variables, but the cam is the big one. It's not likely with a hydraulic roller and that cid.

[undy]

Given the required budget, it's easy to build a 500'+ FE that will turn 9K...

Here's the recipe:

Titanium Rods
light weight forged pistons
Lightened, knife edge billet crank.
T&D rockers
titanium intake valves
sodium filled exhaust valves
custom bee-hive springs
titaium retainers with tool steel 10deg locks.

Most of the strokers are built with heavy h-beam rods, heavy crank and a valve train targeted at 6K RPMs.

There's no TYPICAL engine the Keith builds. If the customer wants a real twister, Keith will build it for them. The depth of your pockets in relationship to one's desires is the only limiting factor. I would agree that Keith builds more hydraulic rollers than solid rollers.

The Z06 is a lot more COMMON and TYPICAL than ANY Cobra is, big block small block or 500"+ stroker.

BTW... did I miss it where it's proof positive that Blitz has a hydraulic roller?

[Dwight]

Mdman352 Question for the masses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What gets you to the finish line first??? Torque or horsepower???
Does it matter if a motor makes 600 horsepower at 5800 rpm or 7200 rpm???

this is a comment that I hope bring a lot of response.

I have read that it takes torque to move the weight of the car and rpms to move it at speed. The way I understand it, a car with 600 foot lbs of torque and 500 hp would be slower than a 600 tq with 800 hp.

What do the experts have to say about this?

Dwight

[Dominik]

500 rwhp and 450lbft in the Cobra is enough to win.
Just get it on the ground. Which reminds me: How are the practice runs coming along??

[Don]

Yes, Las Vegas does have Umbrella Girls for automotive events:

http://www.emmegirls.com/Umbrella_Girls.html

Kirkham Motorsports might be introducing a new umbrella, made of polished aluminum with the KMU logo, the frame work and handle machined from aluminum billets.

Maybe Buzz can enhance the cartoon.......

[CobraDan]

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Dwight

this is a comment that I hope bring a lot of response.

I have read that it takes torque to move the weight of the car and rpms to move it at speed. The way I understand it, a car with 600 foot lbs of torque and 500 hp would be slower than a 600 tq with 800 hp.

What do the experts have to say about this?

Dwight

Exellent question for discussion. Unfortunately, I think a 2200 lb, all-up Kirkham (minus driver) kind of puts a different twist on things. The tires and wieight transfer are probably the key to breaking the initial resting inertia - and after that there is a probably a surplus of torque to slingshot the thing along if the tires can continue to get bite and then HP to accelerate it through the traps. Torque and HP are so inter-related (basically components of the same formula - one used to calculate the other) that their influence on a quarter mile time are tough to completely separate. Vehicle dynamics, peak rpm range, gearing, etc will all influence it. Peak mph in the quarter are usually associated closest with HP. And torque with the launch and at least 60 ft. times if not first 1/8 mile time. But, it's logical that there is a huge area of shared influence over the course of the 1/4 mile.

[Buzz]

Simply put, torque is the power to move things and horsepower is what you do with it once you're in motion - ie:speed. Horsepower is torque working at different RPM's. Given amount of torque at higher revs = higher horsepower.

Developing massive torque at very low RPM's will move a mountain, but you won't be going very fast, for example a diesel tractor engine. You could get a tractor engine to spin the rear wheels very fast using gearing, but the strains on drivetrain components would be astronomical, requiring massive, heavy gears, differentials and transmissions. Forget about a clutch!

If your peak torque is developed at very high RPM's you'll post very high horsepower figures and high top speeds, but generally (depending of course on weight and gearing, etc.) you'll bog of the line with less low RPM torque to help you get that inertial mass moving from a standstill.

Cobras are light cars and need less low RPM torque to get moving than say, a 4000 lb Chevelle so you can develop peak power higher in the RPM band where it will produce the horsepower (ie: speed) needed to win the race once you get past the traction issues at launch.

I have read that it takes torque to move the weight of the car and rpms to move it at speed. The way I understand it, a car with 600 foot lbs of torque and 500 hp would be slower than a 600 tq with 800 hp.

Basically correct (once again, all things equal and not including variables like weight, gearing, etc.)

With both engines having 600 ft/lbs of torque, the one producing higher horsepower does so because it applies that torque at a higher RPM.

[Excaliber]

Oh yeah, the old "Horse power vs Torque" argument!!! One of the eternal questions that will always be with us (kind of like the "is it real" question).

Excellent write up Buzz, well stated.

[Mdman352]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TJIs2t8VPQ

[olddog]

Torque is a rotational force.

Horsepower is a rotational measurement of work, which takes into account the torque, the distance (in revolutions), and the time period.

If you measure 500 Hp at the wheels at a given speed, it doesn't matter how it was made. The car will accelerate the same from that speed. The engine could be developing 5000 ft-lb at 525.2 rpm, or 500 ft-lb at 5252 rpm, or 50 ft-lb at 52520 rpm (ignoring drive train losses). Obviously there must be different gear ratios to accomplish this.

To put it into perspective, if the Hp to the wheels is the same across the wheel speed range in each gear, it does not matter if it is a big block turning lower rpm or a small block turning higher rpm, assuming all other factors are equal (weight, balance, traction, etc.)

[blitzforce]

Ok so I just rented the track for the 8th of March, that is the date we decided to do this race. It's gonna be at the vegas motorspeedway, and if either driver isn't there ready to race they gotta pay 50k penalty. If either driver hasn't posted the money, they lose by disqualification. We also can't touch our cars from feb28th-mar6th(b/c we moved the bet date back 6 days due to the nascar conflict) I ****ed myself according to people i talked to by agreeing that we will not be using a tree, and will be running on ET, meaning neither of us can red light and lose and that it will be going off of our actual quarter mile times, but its one less thing I gotta worry about. I am debating coming to DC to watch Tom drag his car at the track on tuesday, I would LOVE to know what his car can run. My guess is that it won't get below a 12 second, infact I bet Tom 2k that he wouldn't get below a 11.8 on his first 5 passes. I think the magazines and reports are usually with a pro driver and absolute optimal conditions and sometimes with slicks. This being said I would love to watch and I hear he will be racing some of you guys. Would any of you let me rent one of your cobras to do a practice drag vs him, the vegas track is pretty ****ing hard to get on, and will be closed from the 23rd-8th for nascar. Let me know asap, I'm thinking about buying a ticket tonight to go there tomorrow.

[Mdman352]

Originally Posted by blitzforce

Ok so I just rented the track for the 8th of March, that is the date we decided to do this race. It's gonna be at the vegas motorspeedway, and if either driver isn't there ready to race they gotta pay 50k penalty. If either driver hasn't posted the money, they lose by disqualification. We also can't touch our cars from feb28th-mar6th(b/c we moved the bet date back 6 days due to the nascar conflict) I ****ed myself according to people i talked to by agreeing that we will not be using a tree, and will be running on ET, meaning neither of us can red light and lose and that it will be going off of our actual quarter mile times, but its one less thing I gotta worry about. I am debating coming to DC to watch Tom drag his car at the track on tuesday, I would LOVE to know what his car can run. My guess is that it won't get below a 12 second, infact I bet Tom 2k that he wouldn't get below a 11.8 on his first 5 passes. I think the magazines and reports are usually with a pro driver and absolute optimal conditions and sometimes with slicks. This being said I would love to watch and I hear he will be racing some of you guys. Would any of you let me rent one of your cobras to do a practice drag vs him, the vegas track is pretty ****ing hard to get on, and will be closed from the 23rd-8th for nascar. Let me know asap, I'm thinking about buying a ticket tonight to go there tomorrow.

Dan,
I'll sell you mine. That ain't nothing but a couple of good hands, right???

[tommygold]

Haha. All that's true, except I know absolutely nothing about any bet occurring in the State of Maryland. Mods, can we restart the poll? I think we might get different results now. We know Blitz's car is more powerful than we first thought. But on the other hand we also know that I won't either (a) red light or (b) sleep the start, because we're running ET. I'm also almost certain to run in full auto which will take the car to 9k rpm redline and then auto shift in .04 seconds with whatever the computer calculates is best performance. So my only role is to get a good start. That's not nothing, but it's also not a lot. -Tom

[MAStuart]

Dan,
I am at a loss as to how this race is going to work without a Christmas tree? Is it a race with someone who flags and the first one to the finish is the winner or the one with the lowest ET, regardless if he gets to the finish line or not? Just in case you didn't know it, if you have your sportsmans tree or pro tree you could sit there when the light turns green for 15 minutes and then make your pass and it would still show your correct ET time. The ET timer doesn't start until you break the starting line beams. Mark

[MAStuart]

Tom,
I just read your post. Are you saying that you don't necessarily have to race each other, is the winner the guy who posts the fastest ET. Even if he gets to the finish line 12 car lengths behind the other guy? Mark

[MAStuart]

Dan Tom It's not a race if you are not side by side, if you are not under penalty for starting too soon (red light). The first one to the finish line is the winner regardless of the ET. If it isn't this way, it doesn't matter if you race each other or not. All you will have is ET numbers for each of your cars. The lowest ET doesn't always win. Mark