How do you handle the questions?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Yes, yes. Ned wrote that. Yes, Ned is the Registrar for the original cars (427 or 289, can't remember and very knowledgeable as to the history of the original cars) however that statement was made in the context of the new "completion cars" discussion and the personal statement made by him does not represent an official statement by the organization whose text and definitions are clear and expressly stated.

Yes, yes. Context is important. Ned was speaking about all Shelby replicas, not just the 3000 "resurrection" Cobras. However, the 3000 "resurrection" Cobras are actually higher on the old Shelby food chain than your 4000 series car with all those NOS/OEM parts and stuff. BUT, they're all replicas. Not the same company, not the same parts, not the same employees and made 50 years after the original production run. Ned is considered an expert and he has an opinion, just like all the other experts at SAAC.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Court Ruling
Judges Rogers, Walsh and Bergsman presiding -
Shelby continuation cobras are kit cars along with the rest of the non-60's Cobras.

Choke on it.

Gee, you seem like such an angry little chap I know, your frustrated since I debunked your little fallacious, disingenuous and misleading effort to diminish Shelby's role in the creation of the Cobra. Your having such a difficult time here. So now in your rush to "pile on" you went down the same prime rose path poor PaulF went down even citing the Circuit judges names. Impressive.

You also seem to have a penchant for not only trying to skew facts and history but like PaulF exposing your ignorance on subjects you clearly don't understand.

BTW, do you have a copy of the opinion or were you just following PaulF? Don't tell me its the blind leading the blind. How embarassing for such a supercilious little bloke. Ouch.

Cheers.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, yes. Context is important. Ned was speaking about all Shelby replicas, not just the 3000 "resurrection" Cobras. However, the 3000 "resurrection" Cobras are actually higher on the old Shelby food chain than your 4000 series car with all those NOS/OEM parts and stuff. BUT, they're all replicas. Not the same company, not the same parts, not the same employees and made 50 years after the original production run. Ned is considered an expert and he has an opinion, just like all the other experts at SAAC.

Yes, he is an expert on original cars. Agreed. That doesn't mean he speaks for SAAC on all issues nor did he say he was speaking for SAAC. He is not SAAC.

You are entitled to use whatever definition of "replica" you like or analyze it any way you like. I'll stick with the Registry definition. Thanks though.

As for the "Completion" cars being "higher" in the Shelby on the Cobra "totem pole"...yes I can see that if they were actual "completion cars" but that's an entirely different discussion is it not? Bottom line is the Continuation Cobras are on the Cobra "totem pole" PaulF's and the rest in his tribute's category aren't even on the pole. This explains the angst for those in having to admit when they really don't want to to Joe Public his LA Exotic for example or others like it etc...that it is really just a pretend Shelby Cobra. Again, bottom line they can try and garnish it any way they want buy they have a fake of what Shelby owners have.

The only thing that makes many of these guys feel better is to bring down what someone else owns and then cry foul and play the victim saying "its all about his is better then yours" when the facts are shoved in their face. Please. LOL. Comical really.

[Joe's Garage]

Evan you are such a clown. You've already been outed on the other thread as one who spins opinions as facts and misstates history to suit your own agenda. It was a pleasure to see LMH take you to school after a good spanking.

As for the SAAC, nothing more than a special interest rag sold to its' members to make money. The "mission", cater to the broadest membership base they can get, more members = more money. People pay to drink the kool aid, no better example than you who lives and breathes on every word that rag has to say.

Every so often, a legal dispute on the classification of these cars makes its' way to the courts and it is there that clarity is provided and decisions are handed down. You my friend own a kit car just like the majority of cobra enthusiasts do, that is the legal decision of the court by three judges who have no vested interest or bias in the decision - deal with it.

As a footnote, the SAAC Registry follows the loosest standards of any publication dedicated to the preservation of specific automobile history. If you can show the right series CSX number on your frame then the Registry says you have an original. The entire remainder of the car can be a kluge of parts gotten from God knows where, but if you have that CSX number you're in. Trying pulling that BS with any other historical car and you will be laughed out of town as a real idiot who thought he had "an original".

It's too bad, the SAAC could have done it right like everybody else with stringent standards to get into the Registry, but money and greed took over to create a club publication that is worthless in the eyes of true automotive historians.

[Dimis]

Evans right to claim he does have a SHELBY.

If not a shelby, then what?


In my mind, he could answer: Yes, It's both! A REAL SHELBY KIT CAR!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Evan you are such a clown. You've already been outed on the other thread as one who spins opinions as facts and misstates history to suit your own agenda. It was a pleasure to see LMH take you to school after a good spanking.

As for the SAAC, nothing more than a special interest rag sold to its' members to make money. The "mission", cater to the broadest membership base they can get, more members = more money. People pay to drink the kool aid, no better example than you who lives and breathes on every word that rag has to say.

Every so often, a legal dispute on the classification of these cars makes its' way to the courts and it is there that clarity is provided and decisions are handed down. You my friend own a kit car just like the majority of cobra enthusiasts do, that is the legal decision of the court by three judges who have no vested interest or bias in the decision - deal with it.

As a footnote, the SAAC Registry follows the loosest standards of any publication dedicated to the preservation of specific automobile history. If you can show the right series CSX number on your frame then the Registry says you have an original. The entire remainder of the car can be a kluge of parts gotten from God knows where, but if you have that CSX number you're in. Trying pulling that BS with any other historical car and you will be laughed out of town as a real idiot who thought he had "an original".

It's too bad, the SAAC could have done it right like everybody else with stringent standards to get into the Registry, but money and greed took over to create a club publication that is worthless in the eyes of true automotive historians.

Back to calling names? I'll let history, facts and my statements on the other thread speak for themselves and those who know history and the facts can draw their own conclusions. LMH and I actually reached a consensus in the end. Perhaps you missed that? Still stuck on trying to give the Brits the lions share of the credit I see. Carry on.

You again display your ignorance of the Shelby court decisions and the issues and holdings and findings. You don't seem to be able to grasp your folly. The issues and decisions handed down don't say or hold what you mistakenly think they say. I would help you but you don't deserve help so I'll just let you wander around lost in your mistaken notion endlessly embarrassing yourself. It does provide entertainment.

As for SAAC, I'll let them defend themselves should they choose to do so, however, if you could help us here. Please point us to another more recognized authoritative organization on the subject of Shelby Cobras? Please point us to another publication that does what the World Registry does and is viewed as a more authoritative text.


Dealing briefly and specifically with your statements about SAAC's "loose standards" and what they do and what they consider an "original" car I am now trying to figure out whether your issue is ignorance or beyond ignorance. You obviously don't own a World Registry or haven't read it or lack to the ability to grasp whats in there. Lets just politely say your statements about SAAC and the Registry are as skewed as your little effort to hand the majority of the credit to AC for the genesis, development and existence of the Cobra. You Brits taxed us without representation, got your asses kicked by a fledgling army, came back in 1812 burned our White House and got your arses kicked again, yet we broke the stalemate for you in WWI, saved your asses in WWII but you guys still can't give the proper credit due to an American who developed a car from a company who was as busy making invalid coaches and wheel chairs as they were cars into a Ferrari beater on the world stage? You have to try and steal the lion's share of the credit for the Shelby Cobra too. That's just not cricket.

Say didn't you guys have to get permission from Shelby to use that silly "Cobra" name name on that COB version of what he had developed for you for your AC "Cobra"? Yeah, I think so. Ouch again. Why didn't you guys just call the Euro version the "AC Super Ace" or something else instead of having to deal with that cranky Texan?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Evans right to claim he does have a SHELBY.

If not a shelby, then what?


In my mind, he could answer: Yes, It's both! A REAL SHELBY KIT CAR!

True. I also have a genuine Shelby Cobra which is a genuine Cobra. Legally and factually. Lets not be silly.

I'm sure in your mind that answer would be fine but not in mine. Actually, I couldn't and wouldn't answer that way at all as that would be misleading and is inherently inconsistent. Joe Public just wants to know if it's a "fake" or "tribute" Shelby Cobra. I just tell people what what it is as I've indicated above. See post #140 second paragraph. Thats all it takes as noted.

Again, the Registry deals with this issue very effectively and logically taking into consideration current common day usage, understanding and meaning of these terms.

Thanks for the suggestion though. I know you mean well.

If we are hung up on "kit" the original series was a the Superformance kit of its day. Ponder that one.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

,,, Joe Public just wants to know if it's a "fake" or "tribute" Shelby Cobra ,,,

Wrong again, Joe Public wants to know if it's a Fake or Original 60's Cobra. You just can't help yourself from spinning the BS can you

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Yes, he is an expert on original cars. Agreed. That doesn't mean he speaks for SAAC on all issues nor did he say he was speaking for SAAC. He is not SAAC.

You are entitled to use whatever definition of "replica" you like or analyze it any way you like. I'll stick with the Registry definition. Thanks though.

As for the "Completion" cars being "higher" in the Shelby on the Cobra "totem pole"...yes I can see that if they were actual "completion cars" but that's an entirely different discussion is it not? Bottom line is the Continuation Cobras are on the Cobra "totem pole" PaulF's and the rest in his tribute's category aren't even on the pole. This explains the angst for those in having to admit when they really don't want to to Joe Public his LA Exotic for example or others like it etc...that it is really just a pretend Shelby Cobra. Again, bottom line they can try and garnish it any way they want buy they have a fake of what Shelby owners have.

The only thing that makes many of these guys feel better is to bring down what someone else owns and then cry foul and play the victim saying "its all about his is better then yours" when the facts are shoved in their face. Please. LOL. Comical really.

I think the key sentence in Ned's statement is:

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Some time ago it was decided (or so I thought) that SAAC would deal with the historic cars, and let Shelby American handle the replicas they have made.

Just like politicians, positions and opinions can evolve. There may be a movement afoot to remove the Shelby "true replicas", Kirkham and SPF GT40 replicas from the SAAC Registry. I'd certainly support it. There's just too many replicas to keep track of and the SAAC Registrars are just volunteers.

As for the 3000 series resurrection Cobras, at $500,000 per copy , they'll be the best Shelby replicas available.

[twobjshelbys]

I knew I shouldn't have opened this topic. There wasn't anything new when it was brought up in 2011 and there isn't anything new now.

But the one who keeps kicking old topics seems like the novice hiker in the Grand Canyon that goes off trail to kick a rattle snake to see if it will rattle its tail.

[Joe's Garage]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

,,,There may be a movement afoot to remove the Shelby "true replicas", Kirkham and SPF GT40 replicas from the SAAC Registry,,,

A big step in the right direction and how it should have been all along.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

Wrong again, Joe Public wants to know if it's a Fake or Original 60's Cobra. You just can't help yourself from spinning the BS can you

Agreed. Joe Public wants to know if its an original Cobra when he asks the question. No doubt. In every case I've experienced they are in awe to find out it is a genuine Shelby Cobra of the current series and the photo session and Iphone videos begin.

There is no doubt based on your previous nefarious efforts to spin history and facts you would consider actual facts BS. Not surprising.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I think the key sentence in Ned's statement is:


Just like politicians, positions and opinions can evolve. There may be a movement afoot to remove the Shelby "true replicas", Kirkham and SPF GT40 replicas from the SAAC Registry. I'd certainly support it. There's just too many replicas to keep track of and the SAAC Registrars are just volunteers.

As for the 3000 series resurrection Cobras, at $500,000 per copy , they'll be the best Shelby replicas available.

Yes, when Shelby started making Cobras again there was some discussion just how to deal with them. It was an interesting issue as to how to deal with them. I think SAAC made the correct decision in including the new Shelby Cobras as it is part of the continuation evolution of Shelby American. They have dealt with them logically, fairly and correctly. As to the inclusion of other cars they have their reasons and they are free to revisit their decisions. It's their club and their Registry but having cataloged many new Shelby Cobras it would seem counter productive to just leave them out if we are cataloging Shelby Cobras and the ongoing history and developments.

They have clearly broken out the original historic cars to their own chapters.

You say their may be a movement afoot? Funny, I haven't heard of any such movement. You have decided there are too many cars to keep track of? Does SAAC concur with you? Who is your source? Please tell us. Talk about "spin".

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Yes, when Shelby started making Cobras again there was some discussion just how to deal with them. It was an interesting issue as to how to deal with them. I think SAAC made the correct decision in including the new Shelby Cobras as it is part of the continuation evolution of Shelby American. They have dealt with them logically, fairly and correctly. As to the inclusion of other cars they have their reasons and they are free to revisit their decisions. It's their club and their Registry but having cataloged many new Shelby Cobras it would seem counter productive to just leave them out if we are cataloging Shelby Cobras and the ongoing history and developments.

They have clearly broken out the original historic cars to their own chapters.

You say their may be a movement afoot? Funny, I haven't heard of any such movement. You have decided there are too many cars to keep track of? Does SAAC concur with you? Who is your source? Please tell us. Talk about "spin".

It's a club alright. They can decide who's included and excluded. And the only certainty about the future is that we change and evolve. There may come a time that SAAC washes their hands of all replicas, including the Shelbys.

Speaking spin, SAAC has them with logically, fairly and correctly, well, that's your opinion. I disagree. All Cobra, Daytona Coupe and GT40 replicas in the Registry should be removed. Then we're talking about logically, fairly and correctly. Cars built 50 years later that aren't built by the same company, using the same parts and built by the same employees are simply REPLICAS.

Hopefully the SAAC Board and membership will evolve and remove everything but the originals. That's what I would do.

[Joe's Garage]

How a good idea in the beginning got totally corrupted by membership, money and greed. Translation provided free of charge in bold red, more paying members equals more money, pretty obvious why the World Registry is such a train wreck today.

SAAC was originally set up to cater to the cars Carroll Shelby created and raced — Cobras, GT350s, GT500s and Ford GTs — but since its inception the club has broadened its parameters to accept virtually all high performance Ford-powered cars including Tigers, Mangustas and Panteras, Boss 302, 351 and 429 Mustangs, AC Mk IVs, Cobra 4000s, Mustangs of every year including the latest generation of Shelby GTs and GT500s, Griffiths, Italias, Galaxies, Fairlanes, Comets and yes—even Cobra kit cars (can you say $$ CHA-CHING!) While SAAC does not accord “equal” status to all these other vehicles, it nonetheless welcomes them (and their owners) into the club. The reason for this is simple: SAAC has no ownership requirements, so in that sense everyone is welcome to participate. Many members own more than one hobby car and while that first car is usually a Cobra or a Shelby, often the second vehicle is some other Ford performance car. So it is the membership which has actually broadened the club’s scope and determined what cars are accepted at club events (no thanks, I can get that experience cruising a Walmart parking lot)
About SAAC | SAAC HQ

[Al G]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

How a good idea in the beginning got totally corrupted by membership, money and greed. Translation provided free of charge in bold red, more paying members equals more money, pretty obvious why the World Registry is such a train wreck today.

SAAC was originally set up to cater to the cars Carroll Shelby created and raced — Cobras, GT350s, GT500s and Ford GTs — but since its inception the club has broadened its parameters to accept virtually all high performance Ford-powered cars including Tigers, Mangustas and Panteras, Boss 302, 351 and 429 Mustangs, AC Mk IVs, Cobra 4000s, Mustangs of every year including the latest generation of Shelby GTs and GT500s, Griffiths, Italias, Galaxies, Fairlanes, Comets and yes—even Cobra kit cars (can you say $$ CHA-CHING!) While SAAC does not accord “equal” status to all these other vehicles, it nonetheless welcomes them (and their owners) into the club. The reason for this is simple: SAAC has no ownership requirements, so in that sense everyone is welcome to participate. Many members own more than one hobby car and while that first car is usually a Cobra or a Shelby, often the second vehicle is some other Ford performance car. So it is the membership which has actually broadened the club’s scope and determined what cars are accepted at club events (no thanks, I can get that experience cruising a Walmart parking lot)
About SAAC | SAAC HQ

You're confusing what cars they welcome at SAAC events and what cars they include in the registry. Read it again.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

It's a club alright. They can decide who's included and excluded. And the only certainty about the future is that we change and evolve. There may come a time that SAAC washes their hands of all replicas, including the Shelbys.

Speaking spin, SAAC has them with logically, fairly and correctly, well, that's your opinion. I disagree. All Cobra, Daytona Coupe and GT40 replicas in the Registry should be removed. Then we're talking about logically, fairly and correctly. Cars built 50 years later that aren't built by the same company, using the same parts and built by the same employees are simply REPLICAS.

Hopefully the SAAC Board and membership will evolve and remove everything but the originals. That's what I would do.

You may certainly disagree with SAAC. Free country.

....So then if SAI had remained in existence without interruption and today still produced the same Cobra but the sources of parts, chassis and employees were different they would still be replicas/fakes?

They would be what they are today, Shelby Cobras produced at a different time and place with new components. Same car just newer.

By your logic once a manufacturer stops making a car they can never make the car again. Silly.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

True.

Ahhh...Sigh... You could have, nay, should have stopped there...

But you continued... Sigh...

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Lets not be silly.

Yes, lets...


Evan, every time you go down this path you remind me of a T-rex, trying to make a bed. It makes for a great laugh

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Joe's Garage

How a good idea in the beginning got totally corrupted by membership, money and greed. Translation provided free of charge in bold red, more paying members equals more money, pretty obvious why the World Registry is such a train wreck today.

SAAC was originally set up to cater to the cars Carroll Shelby created and raced — Cobras, GT350s, GT500s and Ford GTs — but since its inception the club has broadened its parameters to accept virtually all high performance Ford-powered cars including Tigers, Mangustas and Panteras, Boss 302, 351 and 429 Mustangs, AC Mk IVs, Cobra 4000s, Mustangs of every year including the latest generation of Shelby GTs and GT500s, Griffiths, Italias, Galaxies, Fairlanes, Comets and yes—even Cobra kit cars (can you say $$ CHA-CHING!) While SAAC does not accord “equal” status to all these other vehicles, it nonetheless welcomes them (and their owners) into the club. The reason for this is simple: SAAC has no ownership requirements, so in that sense everyone is welcome to participate. Many members own more than one hobby car and while that first car is usually a Cobra or a Shelby, often the second vehicle is some other Ford performance car. So it is the membership which has actually broadened the club’s scope and determined what cars are accepted at club events (no thanks, I can get that experience cruising a Walmart parking lot)
About SAAC | SAAC HQ

So I can't join a Ferrari club or a Corvette Club or a Porsche Club without owning one? Really? Every club that I know of strives to grow membership. It takes money to run a club as large as SAAC. Just what do you find offensive or problematic with the SAAC statement quote you provided? Seems like a club that is looking to foster interest and preserve interest in Shelby automobiles and autos with Shelby connections and history. That is a good thing, no?

Please elucidate for us why the Registry is such a "Train wreck". To me it is well written and organized. It contains a lot of data and info. A very useful resource and learning tool. You should buy one or read it if you have one. Clear you need to. Again, you "conveniently" left out the part of the SAAC quote you used that states they are the pre-eminent authority on Cobras.

You must have some impressive Walmart you shop at if the cars in your Walmart Store are what shows up at a SAAC convention.... please give us the address. Or could it be that you have no clue what shows up at SAAC conventions. I betting its the latter.

BTW no one ever asked. What Shelby/Cobra related vehicle do you happen to own and the conventions you attended? Do tell.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

You may certainly disagree with SAAC. Free country.

....So then if SAI had remained in existence without interruption and today still produced the same Cobra but the sources of parts, chassis and employees were different they would still be replicas/fakes?

They would be what they are today, Shelby Cobras produced at a different time and place with new components. Same car just newer.

By your logic once a manufacturer stops making a car they can never make the car again. Silly.

Same car? puh-leeze. Your 4000 series body has different aluminum for one thing. Different metallurgy. Different thickness. Differences galore. A '60's top loader and side oiler doesn't make your replica an original.

Your hypothetical is null and void. And my logic is correct. The Cobra and many other vehicles of the 1960's didn't survive because they couldn't meet modern standards of safety and emissions. Porsches and Corvettes evolved, but they're no where near the same car as built in the 1960's. And if Cobras were built today, they would have impact protection, air bags, catalytic converters, etc. they'd probably look a lot like a SRT Viper, in fact.

Nothing remains the same. The SAAC Board and membership will change someday. And so shall replica definitions.