Carbs Damaged By Blended Fuels

[Wbulk]

Recently patrickt has brought to memebers attention a problem with "Holley zink ethanol clogs. This is new: stumbling/missing at idle/cruise speed.
I thought that aluminum carbs were not in danger of the problem with these fuels. I checked my Holley manuals and couldn't find anything on the issue and then read Edelbrocks manual. Under the title Blended Fuels they discuss the two types of blended fuels, gasohol and gasahol. They describe that gasahol can be a blend of gas with either ethanol, methanol or other alcohol. They go on to say that "methanol blended fuel should not be used in their Performer carbs" and I guess the rest citing, "it will cause corrosion". " It can cause rapid failure of seals, gaskets, diaphrams and pump plungers."
Is this a bigger problem than we thought. Are there any experts that can shed some light on methanol blended fuels and what areas of the country are using methanol blends. I don't think gas stations are specifically stating on the pumps if the blend is methanol or ethanol.

[Rick Parker]

Here in California there are large colored labels on the gas pumps stating that up to a certain percentage (15%??) is blended by volume. Alchohol in high concentrations has always caused issues with aluminum in fuel systems. Racers have always had to "Dry out" their lines and related parts by removing all unused alchohol fuel after an event and I think purge them with gasoline.
To find that the plating on current production carbs is being effected by the current trend in fuels is real dissappointing. Guess I'll have to continue running the IDA's.

Fuel injection systems in the current production vehicles is for the most part are made of Ferrous metal, Stainless steel and to some extent plastics and composites which are not affected.

[Wbulk]

I also read that with use of fuels blended with more than 10% carb jets should be increased by 10%.

Wayne

[jwd]

In the Pacific Northwest, we've had ethanol (up to 10%) in our fuel since the early 70's. No big deal. It's never been a problem.

[Rick Parker]

Yes, alchohol as a fuel requires considerably more volume for the same BTU output.


My fuel tank is aluminum, I guess that is something to consider also?

[Skuzzy]

Aluminum is highly susceptible to damage from exposure to ethanol (C2H6O).

Ethanol contains oxygen, which is happy to interact with any susceptible metals it comes in contact with, to form oxides. During the burning process, the ethanol molecule breaks down to CO2 (carbon dioxide) and H2O (water).


One example of a mistake: Lexus had to recall all the 2.5/3.5L V-6s to replace the fuel rails as they were originally made out of aluminum. They were replaced with stainless steel units.

[scaffold]

If I'm not mistaken, the federal govt. recently approved the content of etanol in gas be allowed raise from the current 10% to 15%

[lnfletcher]

I buy my gas at stations that sell ethanol free fuel. You can find them using:
http://pure-gas.org/
Why take the chance and why not support the stations that care about our hobby!

[Excaliber]

The EPA has not yet authorized the 15% mix for small engines and marine use. In addition the recommened 15% blend is for year models of 2007 and later. Even the 10% blend has been a nightmare for marine use AND older "fuel cells" in race cars. In Hawaii the local Formula Ford teams soon discovered that every race car with an older fuel cell tank was damaged and had to be replaced. Pissed off a bunch of folks... Not to mention the mariners who were well beyond pissed.

That narrow criteria for recommended use is virtual proof that they know the 15% blend is going to be a problem for a LOT of people. A very bad decision on so many levels.

[Rick Parker]

There appears to be only 3 in Calif, obviously the Left Coasters don't know about this site. Long way to go for fuel...........
However, perhaps Chevron and Shell are void of it in our area??.

[lnfletcher]

I wouldn't count on any of the big stations not having the blended gasoline. These stations have to go to some trouble to get this fuel and most advertise it to bring in die hards like me!
But the station by me sells it at the same price as the others, but he does not have pay at the pump so he uses the fact of no ethanol to compete. I give him all of the business I can to support him!

[Wbulk]

Larry, thanks for that link. Looks like there are four stations within 15 minutes of my house. One is a 1/4 mile away.
So is government trying to get rid of old carbureted cars and want us to buy new cars, or are they ignorant of the issue. Is this the beginning of the end? I was just out working on my car thinking about natural gas options for the future. We have tons of natural gas in Utah. I could put dual cylinders right where my tank is.

Wayne

[ACademic]

How appropriate. The only 3 stations in Kalifornia that offer it are right down the highway from Sucramento, the nerve center of Kalifornia regulations and the most stringent "clean air and clean fuel" lobby in the entire country.

Great site though and thank you for referencing it.

[Wbulk]

I think the solution may be to get state laws past requiring another warning label next to the blended label. Something like, "Warning this blend of fuel may cause damage to engines with a carburetor." That may put pressure on the stations to carry real fuel also. When people realize that includes a lot ORVs, lawn mowers, generators, construction engines, and hot rods. They may put pressure on the stations.

[SP01715]

I had to replace the metering blocks on my Holley because of corrosion. I buy all my fuel from either 76 or Chevron stations as well. I am sure the ethanol was the cause.

[Scott_Tucker]

We are talking about the shiny silverish plating correct? Not the natural goldish color?

I worked for a carburetor shop for 4 years and came across this plating problem many, many times. It's not the alcohol in the fuel, it's Holley's poor quality control on the plating process. We had many brand new out of the box carburetors that did not work because the plating had chipped off and clogged the passages. If you get one where the plating actually stuck you probably won't have problems.

[lnfletcher]

Originally Posted by Wbulk

Larry, thanks for that link. Looks like there are four stations within 15 minutes of my house. One is a 1/4 mile away.
So is government trying to get rid of old carbureted cars and want us to buy new cars, or are they ignorant of the issue. Is this the beginning of the end? I was just out working on my car thinking about natural gas options for the future. We have tons of natural gas in Utah. I could put dual cylinders right where my tank is.

Wayne

Wayne, I don't think they are ignorant, they want to get rid of all of the non emissions controlled and older engines. They can't get legislation that bans them through because people will not stand for it, but they can regulate them out by the fuels offered. Just think of the cash for clunkers and the multitude of good blocks ruined because of their actions.

Another site to check out that is an organization that fights for the hobbies rights is:
http://www.semasan.com/main/main.asp...ANcom/HomePage
Which is part of:
http://www.sema.org/

[Wbulk]

I am thinking the availabilty of good fuel in the near future may have an impact on the route clubs take for their weekend trips. Maybe the future is just installing new fuel injected engines.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Wbulk

I am thinking the availabilty of good fuel in the near future may have an impact on the route clubs take for their weekend trips. Maybe the future is just installing new fuel injected engines.

I honestly wouldn't worry too much about the problem. So long as you are aware of it, and you don't start disassembling your engine unnecessarily, it's just another small bit of maintenance, and maybe a little cost, that you might need to factor in. Summit sells my exact carb (a Holley 3310) remanufactured for $251. On a worst case scenario, if I had to throw away and replace carbs every six or seven years, we're talking the equivalent cost of one tankful of gas per year. The big deal to harp on is just knowing about the problem and that it can come up literally out of nowhere. It's just like a friggin' kidney stone -- and I've had over half a dozen of them now. I've even passed them in airport bathrooms. I don't even take pain killers for them anymore when they come; it's just a part of my plumbing that clogs up from time to time. Just like my carburetor clogging up, once you get used to it, it ain't no big deal.

[Wbulk]

I agree the information being out there is half of the battle. I think if I had one of these 15k and up engines that were all jetted just right for real fuel would be a concern. Once you accidently or otherwise added mixed fuel your jetting could be 10% off lean. Being aware of the issue hopefully would help in setting up proper A/F ratios.

The other issue that no one has addressed is ethanol vs. methanol. It would appear that at least according to Edelbrock methanol is more a serious problem. They site "rapid failure of seals, gaskets, diaphragms and pump plungers." So does anyone know in what parts of the country do mixed fuels contain methanol? It would seems fire from gasket leaks would be the real concern with methanol.