Performance Engineering

[joyridin']

I'm not going to comment on PE, but I will say this. If you buy a NEW car from a dealership, how long do you expect it to last regardless of how you take care of it?

If it only went 7k miles before the engine took a hike, would you be take it back to the dealer or say oh well?

Unless this was a full blown race engine, or the guy raced it all the time and the engine wasn't built for that purpose, then I believe ANY of us would expect it to last a LONG time. Stuff happens we all know. The key is how it is handled by the seller.

[mreid]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Here is the way I look at these types of things.

I wasn't there, wasn't involved, so therefore I cannot pass judgement.

This is probably the best post in this thread. As I said earlier, we will probably never know the root cause of the issue and we as a forum will never really know the extent of the conversations and commitments between Eric and Chris.

Anyone who ventures into business will have some complaints. It wasn't that long ago that T&L engines was taking a real beating. 99% of the comments I read were negative on several forums I frequent, yet 99.9% of their engines were great. I know many people who bought one and were completely satisfied. It is tough on a business given human nature is to complain when something goes wrong, but to remain silent when it goes right.

None of this is meant to say that Chris doesn't have a problem with PE. In fact it may be unfortunate for Eric that this thread and the broken valve train thread are happening at the same time. Although I do believe that this thread got new attention after a link was posted in the broken valve train thread.

The only advise I have left is for Eric. How you handle this issue and the one in the other thread will, right or wrong, affect how the majority of people think and talk about your company. That does not mean giving in on every issue. What it means is taking responsibility where it is yours and following through on any commitments made. At this point I would also finish the conversations in this thread. If you walk away now, the only voices will be those of Chris and your supporters. The rest of us will be left with a big question mark. That's not a good thing.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by DAVID GAGNARD

PE offered to fix the problem and did, it lasted all of ONE MILE...I think one could/would expect a "little more" mileage out of that engine!!!!!!!!! Don't you??????

Actually David that's what shocked me the most about the story, I can't believe that PE offered to fix it in the first place. How would this be thread read if PE had just said:

"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."

Which is the response that I would expect to get, were I in a similar situation and none of that other stuff would've happened.

Steve

[kayakjack]

Originally Posted by mreid

The only advise I have left is for Eric. How you handle this issue and the one in the other thread will, right or wrong, affect how the majority of people think and talk about your company. That does not mean giving in on every issue. What it means is taking responsibility where it is yours and following through on any commitments made. At this point I would also finish the conversations in this thread. If you walk away now, the only voices will be those of Chris and your supporters. The rest of us will be left with a big question mark. That's not a good thing.

I agree.

This is why I asked Eric (in post #25) to respond to the money issues. The mechanical issues are sometimes hard to understand. I understand money.

If Eric elects to ignore this issue, we are left to form our conclusions without his input. That is not good for Eric.

If he says he never promises Chris money, we have a he said/she said.

If he promised Chris money and then stiffarmed him, goodbye.

Jack

[Blittleton]

Steve,

Well said..... I think Eric should have approached this in that business manner. He would have been better off. I know I didn't get any more help out of Ford with my bastard F350 with less than a month out of warrranty. Cost me 3500.00 out of my pocket, with known issues. I didn't like it and I wished that they would have help a little but they didn't budge on the their warranty.

As a business owner, we all know that if we do fix or replace everything all the time in warranty and out of warranty, we couldn't charge you the customer enough. Next time you want a car or an engine or any item and you want the best price. Maybe we shouldn't give a warranty... hmmm maybe I'm on to something!!!!

Bill

[DAVID GAGNARD]

[QUOTEActually David that's what shocked me the most about the story, I can't believe that PE offered to fix it in the first place. How would this be thread read if PE had just said:

"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."

Which is the response that I would expect to get, were I in a similar situation and none of that other stuff would've happened.

Steve
][/quote]

I agree 100%,but,PE decided to fix the engine,regardless of what happened and who,if anyone was to blame for the damage (he gets a +1 for that), the problem I see,is after the engine was repaired/rebuilt,it failed in ONE MILE (he gets a -1 for that), not quite what one would expect....then it went south from there..........

[QUOTE"Sorry Chris but it's been a long time since we built that and it hasn't been under warrantee for quite some time. We’ll take a look at it but if it isn’t something that we did then it will not be covered."
][/quote]
This would have been my exact responce from the begining and no one could fault PE had he said this........

David

[Dimis]

I don't fully agree David,
Anyone that has fixed anything should fix it to last more than "one mile".

I don't have vested interest either way, but questionable workmanship is inexplicaple!

That's what the evidence thus far is pointing towards.
That said i'm not say PE are liable, but unfortunately, I'd hesitate to handover my money to a business that operated like this.

I'll wait for Eric's final word before Ill make my mind up!

Ps: there's nothing wrong with remaining silent if you paid good money for that job! What do you have to sing about?
Now if I got a good deal... Then I'd sing, and most of do!

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Dimis

I don't fully agree David,
Anyone that has fixed anything should fix it to last more than "one mile".

I don't have vested interest either way, but questionable workmanship is inexplicaple!

That's what the evidence thus far is pointing towards.
That said i'm not say PE are liable, but unfortunately, I'd hesitate to handover my money to a business that operated like this.

I'll wait for Eric's final word before Ill make my mind up!

Ps: there's nothing wrong with remaining silent if you paid good money for that job! What do you have to sing about?
Now if I got a good deal... Then I'd sing, and most of do!

You misunderstood my above post.....When PE offered to fix the motor the first time, I don't think after it is/was out of warranty they were obligated to do so, but they offered and did it..it was an oil pump pickup failure that caused the damage,I don't see after 3 years and 7000 miles how anyone could blame that on PE..it seems to me they were trying to maintain good customer relations and trying to take care of one of their customers.+1 for PE.....When the repair failed in one mile, then it is on PE and that's where the problems started.......
I don't know either party nor have any vested interest in either side, I'm just stating how a non-biased third party as myself sees things unfolding.....and so far, I'm with you on this part:

I'd hesitate to handover my money to a business that operated like this.

Last year,when my F-250 was about six months out of warranty, I had a small problem, went back to the dealer (have had good service from them), they checked it out and found the problem, they also told me it was out of warranty and they would be glad to fix it, but couldn't do so under warranty, I never asked that they do it under warranty, but hoped as a good/repeat customer, they might.when they didn't, I didn't hesitate to tell them to fix it and paid the bill without any reservations....I knew it was out warranty and never really expected it to be repaired under a warranty....

David

[CBattaglia]

Still nothing from Eric.

[Frank Messina]

Has anybody noted that this is the second instance in recent memory where an otherwise well regarded vendor has reneged on a promise to compensate a customer for his finanial losses caused by them? A remarkable similarity exists in that in this case as well as the other, the vendor takes a "go to hell" stance after promising to share costs leaving the customer swinging in the breeze. In my view, you can claim to have built hundreds of the best whatevers on planet earth, but if your word is no good then you and your stuff are to be avoided.
Frank

[vatdevil]

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

[CBattaglia]

Originally Posted by vatdevil

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

But he didnt....! THAT is where the problem lies my friend. He Could have saved me 30 hours of trailering my car around and the cost involved.

And you are right who ever heard of a pick up tube breaking on one of these cars. You ever see the gauge of that metal? At this point I even question that. Rememver I only had 7000 miles on the motor.

[blykins]

The metal on the pickup itself doesn't fail....they usually fail around the welds, or if there's a mounting tab on it (in the case of a rear sump pan), they will sometimes fail there. It's not terribly uncommon for the welds to crack.

In a Cobra application where the pans are mostly front sump and the pickups are very short, I would think there would be less of a chance, but certainly not unheard of.

[BBQCYCLEWERKES]

Was the oil pan damaged? Did the pan bottom out on the track? You were tracking the vehicle when the oil pick up broke. I've seen that happen if the pickup screen is very close to the bottom of the pan and you bottom out the pan. It will then bend or even break the pickup tube from the welds.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by vatdevil

I've never heard of a pickup tube breaking in one of these cars. My concern is are there others out there that could face the same issue? IMHO, I believe Eric didn't have to fix the motor in the first place, but he did.

I have, I've personally seen 2 others in 460's, both were full blown race cars thought and rear sumps.......Best guess was the rigid motor mounts (vibration) and such and the fact they were both rear sump pans....Long pickup tube from the front to the rear sump pan and only one support tab to the main cap..The fix was to weld 2 support tabs to the pickup tube bolted to 2 different main cap bolts........
it happens.......stuff breaks.....
luckily, both cars had 20 psi oil pressure kill switches, shuts the engines off when the oil pressure drops below 20 psi, no damage to either high dollar race engine....

David

[Dynamic]

Eric is smart for not making anymore comments on this post, and I hope he continues not to. As for the credibility of Eric and Performance Engineering, I have to say the following: As someone that worked at Dynamic Motorsports from 2004-2009 I have had a very close working relationship with Performance Engineering. They performed almost all of the drivetrain installations on the Cobra's, GT40's, and Daytona Coupes that were sold by Dynamic. I have personally witnessed Eric go above and beyond the call of duty to stand behind his products, and help customers with motors from other manufacturers. When a customer bought a SPF car from us, they had all of the options under the sun for drivetrain installs. They could choose Ford, Roush, etc. I personally saw more failures in 351 and 427 "crate" motors from the major manufacturers than I ever saw in Eric's engines.

One of the most important things to remember is that if you take a car out on a track, you are on your own. Everyone that has ever had a problem after a track day says the same thing...."I drove it conservatively" or "we only did a few lead follow sessions" but the fact remains that I have never witnessed anyone "baby" the car on the track. Why would you take a car on to the track unless you plan on driving it hard?

After selling a ton of SPF car and having a working relationship with PE in the past, I can say without a doubt that I would personally have Eric install my drivetrain....hands down.

[tcrist]

The point is that the repair work that he did for free (and he did not have to) FAILED after about a mile. That is un-acceptable.

What if the OP had just taken it to PE to be repaired and paid for it? What would the argument be about then?

[pjmoore2003]

At this point the current state of the relationship between vendor and customer is public. In private they need to come to an acceptable joint public statement that each would say with an admission of fault by each person, as well as the financial settling up that was agreed to...

Or thus thread can just die, I don't feel it's going to go anywhere useful from this point.

Maybe Im just a dreamer of a better world where I'm sorry means something and people move past retribution

[kayakjack]

Originally Posted by pjmoore2003

At this point the current state of the relationship between vendor and customer is public. In private they need to come to an acceptable joint public statement that each would say with an admission of fault by each person, as well as the financial settling up that was agreed to...

Fault by the car owner? Your kidding, right?

Jack

[mreid]

Originally Posted by Dynamic

Eric is smart for not making anymore comments on this post, and I hope he continues not to. As for the credibility of Eric and Performance Engineering, I have to say the following: As someone that worked at Dynamic Motorsports from 2004-2009 I have had a very close working relationship with Performance Engineering. They performed almost all of the drivetrain installations on the Cobra's, GT40's, and Daytona Coupes that were sold by Dynamic. I have personally witnessed Eric go above and beyond the call of duty to stand behind his products, and help customers with motors from other manufacturers. When a customer bought a SPF car from us, they had all of the options under the sun for drivetrain installs. They could choose Ford, Roush, etc. I personally saw more failures in 351 and 427 "crate" motors from the major manufacturers than I ever saw in Eric's engines.

One of the most important things to remember is that if you take a car out on a track, you are on your own. Everyone that has ever had a problem after a track day says the same thing...."I drove it conservatively" or "we only did a few lead follow sessions" but the fact remains that I have never witnessed anyone "baby" the car on the track. Why would you take a car on to the track unless you plan on driving it hard?

After selling a ton of SPF car and having a working relationship with PE in the past, I can say without a doubt that I would personally have Eric install my drivetrain....hands down.

I might have considered this reasonable if it wasn't for the broken valve train component thread going on at the same time. Perhaps you have a special relationship with PE that would ensure special treatment and top parts. If you would step back and remove your bias, I doubt you would feel the same if you read both threads. I'm a reasonable and forgiving person, but I would never buy from PE right now given the CURRENT situation. As all of your experience is historical, you might want to reconsider given the CURRENT situation. Pontiac used to build some great cars...