Big block or small block?

[greg schroeder]

If the plan is to look at the car and cause maximum confusion for others asking if it is real get a basic FE with old looking valve covers and old fashion fuel lines and stuff. Then you can make jokes about it being a real car along with evasive responses avoiding disclosure that the car isn't an original Cobra.

For me the plan was to go with a nice size engine that didn't kill the budget. I wanted the car to be very streetable cruising or a fricken hammer if the throttle is mashed and be able to make a casual start high 10s 1/4 pass without having to destroy the car launching hard. The Roush 427R stroker Windsor, hydraulic lifters, Victor Jr. intake, Pro-Systems carb and AFR heads seems to be the trick just like many of the packages out there. Get a good fuel delivery system and a set of Drag radials.

If the plan was to go faster, sure go for a 500+ cube big block or maybe a twin or single turbo small block stroker. That would be fun particularly if the engine was built as light as a Windsor.

The bottom line is you just gotta do what you like rather than what others like.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The BS meter is pegging at 11. The small block people love their small blocks. The FE people love their big blocks. The 385 people love their engines. And the one person with a DOHC mod motor loves his engine. It's the bestest!

I tried very hard to be truthful and objective, without being offensive. To peg at 11 on the BS seems a bit biased. I'm surprised.

Top builders on this forum have said they fights oil leaks on FE engines. I think oil leaks are a very common problem on the FE. Do you dispute that?

The FE guys on this forum almost always advice not to let just any shop build your FE no matter how good the shop. The shop has to specialize in FE or they will likely screw something up. Building an FE yourself is highly discouraged by the experts around here. Why is this? The FE is a very complicated design, where the SB Ford is much simpler, as well as the 385 series engines (just about any engine for that matter). Do you dispute this?

[RodKnock]

First you said FE's have reliability problems, then they're prone to oil leaks, unless built by the top builders in the country. Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

I've had SBF's and BBC's with leak problems. There was just a thread on here about new Ford 427's (SBF) with valve seal issues and leaks. I just think you can't use some all-encompassing large generality about any engine, especially with the parts and technology available in 2011-2012.

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by greg schroeder

If the plan is to look at the car and cause maximum confusion for others asking if it is real get a basic FE with old looking valve covers and old fashion fuel lines and stuff. Then you can make jokes about it being a real car along with evasive responses avoiding disclosure that the car isn't an original Cobra.

For me the plan was to go with a nice size engine that didn't kill the budget. I wanted the car to be very streetable cruising or a fricken hammer if the throttle is mashed and be able to make a casual start high 10s 1/4 pass without having to destroy the car launching hard. The Roush 427R stroker Windsor, hydraulic lifters, Victor Jr. intake, Pro-Systems carb and AFR heads seems to be the trick just like many of the packages out there. Get a good fuel delivery system and a set of Drag radials.

If the plan was to go faster, sure go for a 500+ cube big block or maybe a twin or single turbo small block stroker. That would be fun particularly if the engine was built as light as a Windsor.

The bottom line is you just gotta do what you like rather than what others like.

No doubt there are a lot of opinions some stronger than others.I found over the years it's interesting asking for advise but invariably you will get many different answers and the reasons for them.In my case knew I wanted a big block,just for the grunt at any speed,and for the unmistakeable look when you open the hood of these fantstic cars.My car was built with one thing in mind and that was to please the owner/builder,ME!!
Could care less what critics have to say,my car has all the things I ever imagined a Cobra could be since the first time I ever laid eyes on an SC.Best thing is I built it in my shop my name is on the title and it's parked in our garage maybe 60' from where I am typing this thread.
So no matter what you choose and what to power it with embrace it,enjoy it to the fullest,never forget we only have one shot at this life we cannot do it over.Good Luck, I for one will be interested in what you choose.MDR

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

It's taken me years to get my FE not to leave drips. Once you've figured out the sources of the leaks, and learned the tricks, it's not as tough as you think. Unless there's something really bad wrong with one, I think I could seal it off in less than a year. When it comes to reliability, I think FEs are actually better than average, at least once you've gotten them running for a thousand or two miles. If you look at the FEs from the 60s, those things ran forever with a lot of them getting little to no maintenance. They're a good, strong design and, once you get them past the "break-in" period, they'll last forever. But you do want somebody building them that has built a couple of them before.

[fjrgary]

one of the best quotes i've seen on this forum was " FE's dont leak, they mark their territory".

[RodKnock]

The forums here are littered with engine issues, but here are a few recent and randomly selected SBF engines that have had issues:

Ford Racing 427 burning oil

Ford Racing 427w tuning problem

Dissapointing year end with my Roush 427R

Cam Lobe Pictures, Need Analysis Help

Putting aside engines that have bad parts and/or bad combinations and/or bad assembly and/or poor installations, I'm going to guess that as a percentage, SBF's have about the amount of issues as BBF's. At least it's closer than most folks think.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The forums here are littered with engine issues, but here are a few recent and randomly selected SBF engines that have had issues:

Ford Racing 427 burning oil

Ford Racing 427w tuning problem

Dissapointing year end with my Roush 427R

Cam Lobe Pictures, Need Analysis Help

Putting aside engines that have bad parts and/or bad combinations and/or bad assembly and/or poor installations, I'm going to guess that as a percentage, SBF's have about the amount of issues as BBF's. At least it's closer than most folks think.

I know your just another newbie here but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that car show guys and guys who like to do burnouts prefer FE's and guys who road race prefer small blocks. Has nothing to do with which is better or which is more powerful.
However if your ultimate goal is to be the quickest guy on a road course then a lightly used 358 ci Cup motor makes around 750-800 HP and will spin to 8,500 without breaking a sweat.
You can buy one right now from Roush/Yates performance for about $15,000 complete and nobody is going to pass you on any road course.
Of course you won't be winning any car show trophy's either.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

I know your just another newbie here but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that car show guys and guys who like to do burnouts prefer FE's and guys who road race prefer small blocks.

The discussion the "newbie's" were having, prior to your posting and insult, was about leaks and reliability, not about who runs the road courses better, garners more car show trophies or who can do the best burnouts.

I'm fairly sure that both small blocks and big blocks can do all three (road courses, trophies and burnouts) quite adequately for 99.99% of us newbies as well as the old folks around here at CC.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

...but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that car show guys and guys who like to do burnouts prefer FE's and guys who road race prefer small blocks.

Cup motors are cool. Although I largely agree there are notable exceptions-as you know.
Don Durner, Morris and CSX 3170 are FE road warriors.
Rodameister terrorized with a small block.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

Originally Posted by mdross1

No doubt there are a lot of opinions some stronger than others.I found over the years it's interesting asking for advise but invariably you will get many different answers and the reasons for them.In my case knew I wanted a big block,just for the grunt at any speed,and for the unmistakeable look when you open the hood of these fantstic cars.My car was built with one thing in mind and that was to please the owner/builder,ME!!
Could care less what critics have to say,my car has all the things I ever imagined a Cobra could be since the first time I ever laid eyes on an SC.Best thing is I built it in my shop my name is on the title and it's parked in our garage maybe 60' from where I am typing this thread.
So no matter what you choose and what to power it with embrace it,enjoy it to the fullest,never forget we only have one shot at this life we cannot do it over.Good Luck, I for one will be interested in what you choose.MDR

I've been reading all this banter back and forth, spit for spat, and I agree with this guy's assessment. Build what you like, for whatever reason you want, and enjoy your Cobra. If they all were the same, they wouldn't be interesting at all, and If you really didn't want to spend much money, you would buy a Miata.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Cup motors are cool. Although I largely agree there are notable exceptions-as you know.
Don Durner, Morris and CSX 3170 are FE road warriors.
Rodameister terrorized with a small block.

I did the open track Club Cranky traveling road show with Don Durner and Joe Rodomista along with Hank Dondero, Terry Shank and Mustang driver John Mc Mahon. Yes Don was an exception with his FE but Don was a pretty good driver as well as Joe, Hank and Terry in Small block Cobras. We were the only group to get uninvited to a track event run by a certain brand of replica.
Those were the good olde days.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

I know your just another newbie here but over the last twenty + years it has been pretty much established that... ...nobody is going to pass you on any road course.

Oh dear...!
It sounds like you've might not have learnt much in 20+ years...
Tyres (or tires) & aero dynamics will do more to win you races than engines


I'd hazzard a guess that a 4-cyl clubman or lotus with about 300hp would run away from your 800hp sb cobra on just about any track

All things being eqaul an FE in a cobra is a better "replica" unless it's a 289 or FIA. That said, I'm not advocating that a FE is a better engine, but I know that given the choice - I'd go FE.

The SB crowd make me laugh, they're so hypocritical. They're the first to slag off the BB guys, justyfing their choice by claiming it's lighter, faster, better. Yet are up in arms when you tell them there's a chevy (Toyota, or other) under the hood. I got news for those clowns - If it ain't FE, it's the wrong recipe. So you may as well go ls7, lsx, or ford mod motors or even european motors and at least "replicate" Shelby's concept of auto-evolution.

Now the problem with that, is technology advances and then you left wondering! Go FE if you can and never look back, it's what belongs in a 427 SC if you want to "replicate" the car properly!



PIN PULLED

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

The discussion the "newbie's" were having, prior to your posting and insult, was about leaks and reliability, not about who runs the road courses better, garners more car show trophies or who can do the best burnouts.

I'm fairly sure that both small blocks and big blocks can do all three (road courses, trophies and burnouts) quite adequately for 99.99% of us newbies as well as the old folks around here at CC.

If you think I insulted you then I apologize but when I first got interested in Cobras I was a newbie and I also thought the 427FE was the end all in racing engines. My first engine was in fact a SO 427 so I know a little bit about them I also know they are highly prized today and they are better suited to show/street Cobras.
Once you spend some time around the Cobra scene you find out what real experts prefer in racing Cobras. Bob Bondaurant was one of the first to say that the 351 Windsor was a better balanced Cobra for racing.
When Shelby introduced their spec racing Cobra a few years back it was a 427 body with a 351 Windsor so those guys know something about how to make a well balanced race car.
Now if I was in the market for a street Cobra my choice would be a FE powered Kirkham so I am not anti FE.
So lighten up a little nobody is dissing your car or engine choice.

[RACER X #99]

Originally Posted by Dimis

Oh dear...!
It sounds like you've might not have learnt much in 20+ years...
Tyres (or tires) & aero dynamics will do more to win you races than engines


I'd hazzard a guess that a 4-cyl clubman or lotus with about 300hp would run away from your 800hp sb cobra on just about any track

All things being eqaul an FE in a cobra is a better "replica" unless it's a 289 or FIA. That said, I'm not advocating that a FE is a better engine, but I know that given the choice - I'd go FE.

The SB crowd make me laugh, they're so hypocritical. They're the first to slag off the BB guys, justyfing their choice by claiming it's lighter, faster, better. Yet are up in arms when you tell them there's a chevy (Toyota, or other) under the hood. I got news for those clowns - If it ain't FE, it's the wrong recipe. So you may as well go ls7, lsx, or ford mod motors or even european motors and at least "replicate" Shelby's concept of auto-evolution.

Now the problem with that, is technology advances and then you left wondering! Go FE if you can and never look back, it's what belongs in a 427 SC if you want to "replicate" the car properly!



PIN PULLED

Tell me about the Lotus Ive been on the track with those Catterhams.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by RACER X #99

Now if I was in the market for a street Cobra my choice would be a FE powered Kirkham so I am not anti FE.
So lighten up a little nobody is dissing your car or engine choice.

Ahhhh... A man with taste and perspective

[garyjettrike]

big block bigger the better

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

First you said FE's have reliability problems, then they're prone to oil leaks, unless built by the top builders in the country. Yes, my FE doesn't leak and hasn't had any reliability problems and I'm sure there are quite a few others on this forum with reliable leak free FE's.

I've had SBF's and BBC's with leak problems. There was just a thread on here about new Ford 427's (SBF) with valve seal issues and leaks. I just think you can't use some all-encompassing large generality about any engine, especially with the parts and technology available in 2011-2012.

Reliability problems, unless built by a pro. Oil leaks even when built by the pros. Again the design requires more skill to build than the average design.

Here are comments from a 2007 thread on this forum about an oil leak problem by two top notch guys.


Written by Keith Craft 5/10/2007:
I can not see an engine builder taking an engine that is running perfectly fine back because of an oil leak on a used block. I tell everyone that gets a FE engine do not be surprised if it leaks at the rear main seal. I have built enough of the new and old ones to know. We have tried evrything that we can find and since we do not make the block or machine the seal area we can not stand behind rear main seal leaks. We do check them on the dyno and if they leak we do all that we can to fix them. We have even gotten Chrysler Big Block rear main seals and worked on them for the blocks that seem to be a little big in the rear seal area and have had some suddes doing that in bad situations. It is not only the size of the seal area it is also how it is machined in relationship to the center of the mains. We machine the early 302 and 351 blocks that we do for a one piece rear main seal and find the original two piece seal area of center as much as .030 and it is hard to seal up something that is that much of center. The blue prints for the origins FE engines had most of the tolerances at a plus or minus .025 for areas like this. Even the lifter bores are listed with a plus or minus .025 tolerance for their location. This means that you could have one bore plus .025 and another minus .025. This is mone reason the factory used a rope seal. I have not been able to find any rope seal of late and then they had their own problems. I have had this with all of the original and new FE blocks. You can not machine these blocks for a one piece seal because of the size of the flywheel flange and bolt pattern. Now if we had cranks made with a small block bolt pattern and we could get flywheels with a small block bolt pattern with a 184 teeth we could do this. Maybe I need to look into a new way to go and any ideal would be nice. If I get a FE engine that runs good and is giving me no problems and only leaks a one to two inch circle after setting over night I am happy. Good luck, Keith Craft

The next post by Barry R. (I don’t want to butcher the spelling of his last name):
Amen to that!

I spend way too much time trying to get the rear main seal "perfect" - using a variety of chemicals and such. And I still get a leaker from time to time.

I think an FE is the only engine that you assemble with nails...

I cannot really comment on the amount of leakage or the reasons - that stuff is nigh unto impossible to isolate sometimes even with the car in front of you, much less over the internet.

Five posts later by Keith Craft:
I try to talk about all of the pros and cons to an engine build. As I said earlier when it comes to FE engines the rear main seal is always discussed. We do not have many that leak but every now and then we do. We have spend more time on oil leaks and rear main leaks in the last couple of years than we have making HP. What I mean by that is that the HP is not a issue on these engines and the oil leaks are. We have worked with all sorts of products and methods to try and come up with a full proof method but we still have not got one. If I put 100 engines on the dyno built the same way they will all make the HP they should but we will have a few that will leak. This is what I mean by spending more time working on oil leaks. With the CNC equipement we use on the heads and blocks along with our years of racing FE engines the power is a non issue but that damn rear main seal is still lerking waiting to leak. It really sucks that is for sure. Keith


I feel my comments were objective and fair. You make good points that all engine designs have their problems. 2007 is near 5 years ago maybe thing have improved.

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by patrickt

It's taken me years to get my FE not to leave drips. Once you've figured out the sources of the leaks, and learned the tricks, it's not as tough as you think. Unless there's something really bad wrong with one, I think I could seal it off in less than a year. When it comes to reliability, I think FEs are actually better than average, at least once you've gotten them running for a thousand or two miles. If you look at the FEs from the 60s, those things ran forever with a lot of them getting little to no maintenance. They're a good, strong design and, once you get them past the "break-in" period, they'll last forever. But you do want somebody building them that has built a couple of them before.

A lot of the old school guys have the advantage of living in a time when knowing how to maintain and keep our cars in perfect running order was the norm.To this day still enjoy lifting the hood for some TLC,figuring out where a leak is, then how to stop it,doing a tuneup,generally looking the car over,grease jobs,all the things required to satisfy the perfectionism gremlin.Still crawl under car to wipe down undercarraige.As I have always said it is me that needs to be pleased and TLCing these toys truly pleases me.It does not matter who's name is on the fender badges or what powers them down the road they all get the same treatment.

[ZOERA-SC7XX]

FE's (and toploaders) are the great link to the old original big block Cobras that I try to emulate with my car. My Cobra may not be real, but my 428 FE and CR toploader is. That's all I need. It's a blast to drive (even when it's cold outside). If I had an FIA Cobra (or a slabside), I'd have a 289 with the same toploader for the same reasons. Doesn't need gobs of horsepower, just lots of street torque, which it does have. Maybe the body/frame configuration is recent, but the drivetrain is 1966 vintage. A few oil drips don't bother me either. Give me the old school for this car. This ain't no Miata.
With that said, everyone is entitled to their own reasons for their build, and that's what makes the world go 'round. I have no disrespect for Chevy powered (or any other) Cobras. If your shoes fit, wear 'em.