Roller vs. stamped rockers

[lippy]

I'm planning my ERA 427 SO, and have narrowed engine builders to just a few. I will probably use either a Pond or a Shelby block, and it will be a relatively mild build (550 HP +/-).

One of the builders advises me that even if money is no object, I shouldn't go with roller rockers because the benefits are almost undetectable and they are prone to failure (although T&D's are the best/most reliable). I've read tons of posts on engine forums and from what I can tell, the benefits do appear to be marginal and debatable.

Has anyone here built a high-performance FE using high-quality stamped rockers? Conversely, has anyone had problems with rollers - esp T&D's? It would be good to hear your experiences and opinions.

[Hotfingrs]

I've used T&D for about 11 years now and haven't had one problem with them...

[patrickt]

I have Erson rollers, which you can't get anymore -- very reliable, from all accounts. Frankly, you don't need rollers and doing without them will save you a few hundred bucks. The original Ford adjustables, and non-adjustables, did just fine on many a FE, and I doubt your engine is going to be run all that hard anyway. I don't remember whether you showed a preference for hydraulic or solid lifters, did you? End stands are something you would want though for anything other than a parade car.

[patrickt]

[blykins]

Putting out 550hp may not sound like much to some, but it requires a little bit of effort, in the way of cubic inches, cam selection, cylinder heads, etc, etc.

Most of the cams that are used in these engines are healthy flat cams or nicely matched roller cams. Those cams with .600-.650" lift will put factory parts to the test, especially without hardened shafts, end stands, etc, etc.

Non-adjustable factory rockers are laughingly inappropriate in this type of scenario, and the factory adjustable rockers that I've seen on Edelbrock heads don't provide good rocker arm to valve tip geometry.

In my mind, at the very least, upgraded stands and shafts should be used, then you're worrying about the cast bodies of the rocker arms and the adjusters holding up.

In a 300-350hp hydraulic flat tappet engine, I could see where these would be appropriate. In a $17k-18k all-aluminum, 550-600hp roller engine, these are not even a consideration on my builds. I wouldn't want that build compromised on a set of cheap rockers. Even with an aesthetics standpoint, I'd hate to show off my $5000 engine block, $3000 set of heads, ported and matched intake manifold, then pull off the valve covers to see a set of 40 year old cast iron rocker stands and rocker bodies....

Jeff, I know I spoke with you on the phone about this, but I don't feel like I stated my case thoroughly enough. The benefit may not solely be on the horsepower side, but it is very much on the reliability side.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Jeff, I know I spoke with you on the phone about this, but I don't feel like I stated my case thoroughly enough. The benefit may not solely be on the horsepower side, but it is very much on the reliability side.

Jeff, you should really listen to Brent. I'll give this to him: He is absolutely honest as the day is long and he will help you get an engine that will last and that will stay within your budget. I'm afraid if you start picking out parts yourself you might pick something like a cheap Chinese rockershaft and you'll pay for it big time later. Brent knows ways to shave costs off your engine that will not endanger it and that will lend itself to easy upgrading later. For instance, he might put my Holley 3310 on there for you and it would cost less than $200 -- you could upgrade that to the thousand dollar carb at a later date with no trouble and with no risk of damaging your engine in the meantime.

[mkassab]

I concur.... go with Brent's advice. Brent is building my 3rd engine project. Also give strong consideration to Brent being your engine builder!!! It will pay off more in dividends beyond the engine itself. Brent will always be there for you!!

Good Luck, Mark

[redmt]

X4 on Brent. He is an encyclopedia of current info and products that work together. Any body can order up a pile of parts that will fit. The trick is to know which parts work together. Besides all that , he's a pretty good guy to work with in your build. He's building a 410 SB for a coupe project I'm working on now.

[patrickt]

Dang, you can get my carb off of Ebay for $89. A quick rebuild and it would be good as new (and I really do like my carb). HOLLEY 4160 750 CFM 4 BBL CARB CARBURETOR LIST 3310 - 2 | eBay Between the carb, flywheel, clutch package, bellhousing, and valve covers alone, I bet ol' Brent could shave well over a grand off of your first set of rough numbers. Maybe even two....

[tirod]

It's touched on, there's a lot more to picking a rocker. If someone is buying a built crate motor, then let the guy who's backing it with a warranty make the choice. It's his money on the line if it fails, and he will make a knowledgeable choice based on not having you come back with a problem. In the $5000 dollar and up range, I wouldn't expect to even be allowed to micromanage the choice of which rocker to use.

Why? As was mentioned, it's all about valve train geometry. Stock parts shouldn't be reasonably expected to work in a valvetrain where all the other parts were selected to enhance the timing and lift. It's like insisting a new Cobra be put on 15X6 steel rims with 2 ply bias tires. Nobody raced them that way, it was Halibrands and Goodyear billboards, or go home.

Rockers not only have bearings to reduce friction, the more important function they serve is to be more rigid to reduce harmonics; to have better leverage, enhancing intake timing and lift; and to be much stronger, to handle higher spring pressures. Typically they're made from aluminum, to reduce the reciprocating weight and raise the float rpm limit. They are adjustable, to get them to work at the appropriate height for the valve and spring package, and have stronger tips to handle the more violent action of high performance cam profiles.

At least, that's what all the rocker arm makers, magazine writers, and hot rod engine builders who write books have been saying for over 30 years. I don't buy the Brand koolaid, but they have a consistent message.

In this case, a 550 hp 427 FE isn't a mild build at all, and having it go down in a few thousand miles to save $200 is false economy. Once the valve train is set up, a stock rocker might not even be able to physically function - it only works with stock factory valvetrain stuff, and nobody gets 550 hp from those.

There's a limit to how far a business can bend over backwards satisfying a customer. Once it starts costing them profit, doing things that damage their reputation, and against good practices of their trade, they politely excuse themselves and move on. Customers who have so much knowledge they feel they can dictate terms on small but influential areas are invited to try it themselves - at their expense.

Hot rods are NOT a collection of the coolest or least expensive parts. They are a dynamic assembly that has to interoperate with each other, and that creates synergy - the result is more than just the adding together, it's a mulitplication. Getting 550hp out of a 427 FE will require it, and only experience and knowledge of what works best together with other parts will get that result.

Chinese menu motors fill local car shows, but the results are seen at the strip and track. The cream rises to the top, and it takes a lot to get there.

[lippy]

Guys, thanks for the input. I'm not trying to micromanage the builder. I'm interviewing builders and am down to my final few. Of course, I ask them what parts they recommend and why. One of them mentioned he only uses stamped rockers and I found that to be curious, as every other builder I've spoken with uses T&D roller rockers. So I did a bit of research on the topic and wrote this posting. BTW, all of these guys are good engine builders and I think I would do well with any of them.

[ERA Chas]

T&D's are much more than you need for your usage and big ticket items.
My Harland Sharps have worked for two decades with a .633" cam and 340 pound springs at 550HP. They are bushed rollers with a true ratio. Whole kit is ~$500 less than T&D's.
Harland Sharp S4006BKE - Harland Sharp Shaft Mount Roller Rockers - Overview - SummitRacing.com

[blykins]

Harland Sharps are nice too. I've used them on some small blocks.

The T&Ds are available in two flavors....race and street. The street version is just a tad over $900....work with regular ball/ball pushrods, work with lifter oiling or head oiling, etc.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by blykins

The T&Ds are available in two flavors....race and street. The street version is just a tad over $900....work with regular ball/ball pushrods, work with lifter oiling or head oiling, etc.

Sorry Brent-I just knew the race set price...

[blykins]

An't no thang.

It used to be that they only made race stuff. But since Erson quit making their set, T&D stepped up and made a very nice set.

[mr0077]

Say, isn't another benefit of roller rockers that hasn't been mentioned that they reduce the side load on the valve stem and the related valve guide and stem wear?