Cobra power, how much is enough?

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Silverback51

Sorry, in some cases that's an Apples to Oranges comparison.

A lot of the Kits/Replicas today have much better handling than the originals. This is due to frame designs and the components used. Good street tires like the 15 inch Avons, or Nittos in the 17/18 inch sizes will out perform the race tires of that time.

Could I out drive one of those drivers in original Cobras? No. However I would take my chances in a modern Cobra verse them in an original.

No I am talking apples to apples. I am not considering more modern chasis and tires etc.. Once you start with more modern designs, tires, suspension etc the game changes. True. However, you are now removed and far away from what the car was. I am confident my Carrera GTS would turn a faster time on a track the an original design Cobra and it weighs more and is down about 60 hp. Why? Better suspension, brakes, tires etc...

Rodknock: Also I don't consider 600 hp crazy especially with a mild cam. It's when guys start hitting 650 and up that to me is starting to be silly in a street car with a 90inch wheel base and little if any safety features. But, hey that's just little ol' me. What do I know?

[twin turbo]

[quote=REAL 1;1195285]Anyone who claims they need more than 400 to 500 hp in a 2300 lb with a short 90 inch wheelbase car for the street or even for open track is to be taken with a grain of salt, a polite smile and then as you walk away

Ken Miles and Shelby's other top drivers and many privateers had a hard time taming the 427 beast with 475hp to 500 hp.



First of all, wasn't Dick Smith driving his Cobra on the track with around 650 hp during his 198 mph moment?

2nd of all, I think Morris Clements Kirkham is probably the fastest road course car and he is certainly running more than 400-500 hp. I recall him wanting to wring another 100 hp out of his engine. I guess you would roll your eyes at him as well.

3rd of all, wasn't there an original Cobra (though far from stock) running 700+ hp that won the Ultima Street car challenge a year or 2 ago, including the fastest autocross time.

I guess I better stop there. I don't want your eyes to get sore from all that eye rolling on cars that can't use that power and are obviously just for bragging rights. Cheers.

[twin turbo]

Real 1, just now saw your follow up post. Sounds much more reasonable. Honestly, my car, a hot rodded replica, is very controllable with over 500 rwhp. I also now have a full width roll bar and side bars for safety. Cheers.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by twin turbo

Real 1, just now saw your follow up post. Sounds much more reasonable. Honestly, my car, a hot rodded replica, is very controllable with over 500 rwhp. I also now have a full width roll bar and side bars for safety. Cheers.

Correct.. I understood this thread to really be directed towards overweight, out of shape middle aged guys wearing Kahki shorts and sandels at car shows bragging about the 700+ hp in their car. That kind of power and torque in a 90 inch wheel base skate board weighing in the neighborhood of 2500 lbs with all the safety features of a soap box derby car is a receipe for trouble ( a Cobra with original spec power is trouble enough if not handled with respect). Many specialty insurance companies realized this and have gotten out of the Cobra repica market for this reason.

And yes, the guys you mentioned like the one running his car competitviely at the Ultima Street challenge (heavily modded car to my understanding as you noted too), or Morris Clement certainly are far from the show and shine guy with an over powered under set up car. Those guys are competing at the top of the game and know what they want and need and undoubtedly have the car set up and ability to deal with the increased power. So no, I wouldn't roll my eyes at those guys. But they are in the minority with cars with that kind of power.

Dick Smith? What can I say? Certainly a man in the pantheon of Cobra drivers and competitors. A legend. It is well known that in order to get a Cobra roadster to 198 mph you needed seroiusly more power then 500hp based on areodynamics. Since Dick didn't have a coupe he got more power. And no, I certainly wouldn't roll my eyes if Dick Smith said he was looking for more power in his Cobra.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Because of Tin-Man's unusual build, Patrick would tell you that his bath water is going to be a degree or two past tepid. Say, $60k or more of yet-to-be-realized loss.

I was trying to be kind.

No need to kick someone when they're down.

Evan, I don't consider my build to be "mild", but I would say it's somewhere in the vast middle. I'm very happy with my build, but certainly wringing out another 10-25 HP with some righteous carb tuning wouldn't hurt either and make me even happier.

[REAL 1]

Rodknock: Having heard of your prodigious driving skills and lighting reflexes I say go for it!!!

[Buzz]

Evan ol' buddy, don't forget that Ken miles and the boys were pushing the Cobras to their limits and beyond on the racetrack; so yes they would've been a handful at the limit compared to other contemporary sports/racing cars with different chassis dynamics and mere mortal power to weight ratios.

Ps: nice to see you back posting regularly. Kinda makes some of us CC old timers feel at home again.

[mreid]

Okay, the terms "overweight", "large sized", etc. that have been used in this thread should be replaced. In my house we refer to this as "superior down force". Sounds more racy like a 550hp small block, sticky Avon tires, Wilwood giant clamping 18 piston brakes, and fancy billet suspension. Try saying, "When I'm driving my cobra, it has superior down force."

[lovehamr]

Mine must have butt-loads of down force then............

[Silverback51]

Mine has butt loads of butt.

I was going to throw Jamo under the bus here, but then thought better of it.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Evan ol' buddy, don't forget that Ken miles and the boys were pushing the Cobras to their limits and beyond on the racetrack; so yes they would've been a handful at the limit compared to other contemporary sports/racing cars with different chassis dynamics and mere mortal power to weight ratios.

Ps: nice to see you back posting regularly. Kinda makes some of us CC old timers feel at home again.

Yeah, I guess I've mellowed with age. Kinder gentler me.

Now if we can only get Turk back. Ah yes, all nostalgic now. Yeah, those were the days when men were men and the gloves came off and brass knuckles were common around here.

[kobrabytes]

Not really... I think this thread is dedicated to us old farts who can afford to burn our hard earned cash like toilet paper on the dreams of our youth.

We do it because we can... Fun is the object, not the money....

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Correct.. I understood this thread to really be directed towards overweight, out of shape middle aged guys wearing Kahki shorts and sandels at car shows bragging about the 700+ hp in their car. That kind of power and torque in a 90 inch wheel base skate board weighing in the neighborhood of 2500 lbs with all the safety features of a soap box derby car is a receipe for trouble ( a Cobra with original spec power is trouble enough if not handled with respect). Many specialty insurance companies realized this and have gotten out of the Cobra repica market for this reason.

And yes, the guys you mentioned like the one running his car competitviely at the Ultima Street challenge (heavily modded car to my understanding as you noted too), or Morris Clement certainly are far from the show and shine guy with an over powered under set up car. Those guys are competing at the top of the game and know what they want and need and undoubtedly have the car set up and ability to deal with the increased power. So no, I wouldn't roll my eyes at those guys. But they are in the minority with cars with that kind of power.

Dick Smith? What can I say? Certainly a man in the pantheon of Cobra drivers and competitors. A legend. It is well known that in order to get a Cobra roadster to 198 mph you needed seroiusly more power then 500hp based on areodynamics. Since Dick didn't have a coupe he got more power. And no, I certainly wouldn't roll my eyes if Dick Smith said he was looking for more power in his Cobra.

[Buzz]

Originally Posted by kobrabytes

We do it because we can... Fun is the object, not the money....

I do believe that says it all right there.

Originally Posted by REAL 1

Now if we can only get Turk back. Ah yes, all nostalgic now. Yeah, those were the days when men were men and the gloves came off and brass knuckles were common around here.

I wonder if we could get him back for a little cameo once in a while - I'm thinking along the lines of Gashole Wars 2012

[PHC1]

Well, I think I have a better understanding now of what a Cobra feels like and how much HP "I" would need after being a passenger in a Kirkham as well as trying a Superformance out from behind the wheel.. I would be more than OK between 400-450HP. They are fun machines but personally I would never try to push my luck too far in one of these.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by PHC1

... after being a passenger in a Kirkham as well as trying a Superformance out from behind the wheel.

Now that you've answered the horsepower question, could you see any differences between the Kirkham and the SPF? Did any of the differences jump out as you as "gotta haves?" Now I'm not talking originality, or even the aluminum v. glass thing. Instead, those differences could be as little (or big) as the wipers, stance of the hips, look of the nose, etc. Or, did both cars pretty much look the same to you?

[PHC1]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Now that you've answered the horsepower question, could you see any differences between the Kirkham and the SPF? Did any of the differences jump out as you as "gotta haves?" Now I'm not talking originality, or even the aluminum v. glass thing. Instead, those differences could be as little (or big) as the wipers, stance of the hips, look of the nose, etc. Or, did both cars pretty much look the same to you?

Liked them both a lot! I don't have the "trained" eye for authenticity, nor is it really a priority for me with my first Cobra selection. It was great to be able to see both side by side and they both looked very good and very similar in shape. Of course there are minor differences in the shapes but I really can't say which is better because they both look great. I could easily live with either in terms of overall shape and close resemblance to the original if that's the benchmark...

Felt a bit different of course. The superformance had many, many more miles on it and the owner uses it quite a bit. The suspension/ride quality was more forgiving overall but the car was not quite as "tight" as the virtually new Kirkham. The Kirkham felt both stiffer in the suspension and body rigidity and I guess that makes sense since it is aluminum and new, also much louder.

The superformance felt like it was more forgiving, more driveable while the Kirkham felt more raw, precise and high strung and a bit edgier. I guess at the end of the day it's what one prefers to do with the car. The Kirkham was also in their "filed" form, meant to be painted and that really gives it a more serious, "body in metal" look, very unique.

I'm still on the fence in terms of my first Cobra but at least I now have a better understanding!

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Now that you've answered the horsepower question, could you see any differences between the Kirkham and the SPF? Did any of the differences jump out as you as "gotta haves?" Now I'm not talking originality, or even the aluminum v. glass thing. Instead, those differences could be as little (or big) as the wipers, stance of the hips, look of the nose, etc. Or, did both cars pretty much look the same to you?

Patrick: As noted by PCH1 to his untrained eye he could not see much of a difference. To those like me that have been around these cars for years and years we can tell these cars apart from 50 yards away. The average guy can't. I can see a substantial difference in body shape between a SPF and a Kirkham. I'm sure you can to.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The average guy can't. I can see a substantial difference in body shape between a SPF and a Kirkham. I'm sure you can to.

Yes, I wanted to see if he spotted some of the differences, like the pedals, or the radiator. Some people can't, you know... and if you can't see it, then there's really no point in paying for it. For me, the angle of the radiator was always important. Not so much because of the originality thing, I just really don't like the look of a vertical radiator. If ERA had a vertical radiator I doubt I would have bought one.

[bret a ewing]

If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

[REAL 1]

Patrick: Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't have value you won't pay for. There are some intrinsic aspects that have value.

You can't see the the difference from aluminum to glass in many cases yet guys (like yours truly) paid the upcharge for aluminum.