FII Roadster - Thoughts

[kkosche]

Hello all. I am new to the forum. I have been playing with a C5 the past 7 years, but have always admired the soft lines and blinding performance of Cobras.

Given that I will never afford (or choose to spend) the crazy money an original Cobra brings . . . I been considering purchasing a recreation. I was forming my opinions about the best kit to purchase (most likely from someone who already has it finished). Things that I think are important to me are: big block, vintage look fuel injection (I like the 8 stack look), IRS, well balanced car, absolutely ridged frame structure, 5-6 speed manual.

Just got back from Barrett Jackson (Vegas Sept 19 - 22) where I met Bob Wingard and saw his beautiful cars (FII Roadster). Very impressive car, and frankly very impressive individual. Great conversations.

More information can be found here:

FII Roadster: Shelby Cobra for the 21st Century - Motor Trend

So . . . I would welcome any opinions, council, suggestions you folks would have on this package. At this point, to me anyway, the combination of history / performance just can't be beat . . . but it is still a lot of dough (think $150K all in, built how I would want it built).

Thank you for reading this post, and thanks in advance for any comments you might share.

Regards,

Kevin
Lake Stevens, WA

[kkosche]

Got zippo response on my post . . . so here are some pictures of the FII from Barrett Jackson last week . . . I welcome your thoughts.

[tkb289]

Kevin,

First off ... I see this is your first post, so welcome to Club Cobra.

Here are a few thoughts … The FII looks to be an impressive car and I have seen the bare roller at a few car shows. It's nice to see something come of these left over Series I chassis and I wish those involved good luck with their venture.

A 'Cobra-style car' at the price you mention is something to consider if that is what you are after. I have no doubt the performance is indeed impressive and quite a car on the road or track.

However, for that kind of money (or a lot less) one might also consider a continuation CSX 4000/6000 or a Kirkham, ERA, Superformance or any number of other Cobras built just the way you want it.

I think the FII will appeal to some, whether or not it's the right car for you depends on what you are looking for.

Good luck in your search, keep us posted !

[REAL 1]

It's a cobra style body over a series one chasis. It's light years away from performing or driving like a Cobra. Different universe.

At that price I would pass for a number of reasons. I'd prefer a Ford GT. Some nice higher mileage GTs can be found in that range. But I'm not you.

At that price (100k+) there are many options with broader appeal, better value retention and steller performance such as: Shelby aluminum bodied CSX 427, new Viper, ZR1, Porsche GT3RS, 360 Scuderia or a nice 430, SPF GT 40.

But it's your $ and your choice. Just my 2 cents.

[kkosche]

Great feedback. Appreciated.

A lot of options at that price point, that is for sure.

If one was going for value retention, hard to beat a '05 / '06 Ford GT. However the performance, while respectable, is becoming pretty pedestrian . . . One can get a ZR1 for about 1/2 the GT's price that will beat it in the majority (all?) of performance attributes. The ZR1's on the other hand were pulling $120K (or more) just a couple years ago . . . and now can be found pretty easily for the mid $80's with under 10K miles. Performance per dollar . . Corvettes are really hard to beat . . . which is why I have my modified C5.

There are some really nice replicas . . no doubt. To build what would be close to the FII is very difficult to do for under $100K . . . and in the end the foundation (frame / chassis design) would be inferior.

One thing I like about the FII is the frame / chassis design is all Shelby. . . huge dollars spent on the Series 1 design. . . in my mind it is as much "Shelby" as the continuations . . as the continuation bodies come from Kirkham I believe, engines / trans are usually modern versions of past . . so what are we left with? Frame, chassis and assembly. I think I would prefer a glass body, as there are many more folks who can work on glass if something bad happens.

With all this said, the FII is a strange combination . . Body is quite a bit larger . . so it is "Cobra like". . . not a replica. Series 1 chassis were never meant to be a "modern Cobra". Unique animal which will appeal to a much smaller subset of the population.

The other consideration (would apply to any Cobra purchase) is I live near Seattle. It is easy to forget (we have had a great summer) how much rain this place gets . . . so an open car (no top) has some serious considerations if one was to use it for anything more than a day drive.

The smart thing to do would be to continue to enjoy my C5, and go buy some investment property . . yet the combination of performance, Shelby history, the story, the story . . are all so appealing.

[patrickt]

You should buy it if you want it and can afford it. IMO, it bears a passing resemblance to a Cobra on the outside, and next to none under the skin. It would not be something I would buy, even at half the asking price, as some of the "impracticalities" of my Cobra are precisely why I bought it, and why I still have it after all these years. If you're looking for a pure investment, that has four wheels, I have no idea whether that car would hold its value any better than anything else. If you're looking for pure fun, then a more "classic" fake Cobra would be your best ticket. If you really don't care, and that's the car you really want, then go for it....

[REAL 1]

Well, I don't think you can describe a stock FGT's performance as pedestrian. By all accounts it is still a world class performer and supercar. It is still used for comparisons with some of todays supercars. If you consider the FGT's performance "pedestrian" your driving skills are way above the average Joe. A simple pully and tune or a Whipple will not only have the FGT running with a stock ZRI (which a stock FGT can do anyway) but running out front.

One area the FGT clearly outperforrms the ZR1 is value retention and most others for that matter.

While in your mind the FII is as much a Shelby as a Continuation series the realtity is it's not. Don't be confused. The FII is not a "Shelby". It utilizes a Series I chasis. That's it. If it's not completed by Shelby or an authorized dealer and does not come with Shelby title work or an authorized Shelby product it's not a Shelby. Period. You may consider it as such but that doesn't change the reality.

The FII is a car that utilizes a Cobra look a like shell on a very modern chasis. As far as aestetics it's not a very convincing replica for a host of reasons from it's interior, width, wheelbase, curves etc...But only those who know Cobras will notice that. The average Joe, likely not. It's in a different universe in every respect from a Car that truly duplicates the true Cobra inside and out. The FII to me is like putting a Cobra shell on a Viper or ZR1 Corvette....it will kinda look like a Cobra (kinda sorta) but thats where it stops.

Like Patrickt said. If you like it and want it buy it. It woiuldn't be my choice at any price really.

[Cobra #3170]

I should begin by saying I am very prejudiced so you will probably ignore what I have to say. The F11 is such a poor duplication of the original shape of a Cobra that people will immediately think it is a very bad imitation and never know of the sophistication of the underpinnings. Those rearward sloping dual roll bars aren't helping either. While I am sure the performance is good, you can do much better in that price range. A new Viper, for example, would draw far more attention than the F11 and out perform it on a road course. If you want to go really fast and don't care what people think an RCR would certainly outperform the F11. If you want to impress lots of people a Ford GT will get the job done. They are so rarely seen that wherever you go a crowd will form to look at the car. ROI of the GT is also something to consider, you won't loose money or have any trouble selling it. It all comes down to what you want to achieve, impress people or enjoy the dynamics of your new car or both. There are lots of much better choices out there, it just comes down to what you want to achieve.

[REAL 1]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I should begin by saying I am very prejudiced so you will probably ignore what I have to say. The F11 is such a poor duplication of the original shape of a Cobra that people will immediately think it is a very bad imitation and never know of the sophistication of the underpinnings. Those rearward sloping dual roll bars aren't helping either. While I am sure the performance is good, you can do much better in that price range. A new Viper, for example, would draw far more attention than the F11 and out perform it on a road course. If you want to go really fast and don't care what people think an RCR would certainly outperform the F11. If you want to impress lots of people a Ford GT will get the job done. They are so rarely seen that wherever you go a crowd will form to look at the car. ROI of the GT is also something to consider, you won't loose money or have any trouble selling it. It all comes down to what you want to achieve, impress people or enjoy the dynamics of your new car or both. There are lots of much better choices out there, it just comes down to what you want to achieve.

I agree ....+1

[Three Peaks]

All of the above is excellent advice and I agree completely. If this is your cup of tea, don't let anyone persuade you otherwise.

However, take a look at some practicalities on this car. How in the world do you (or a mechanic) work on this thing? With the body on there are a ton of things I can see immediately in your pics that would be impossible to reach, including the overflow tank, shock towers, the item on the passenger side which I can't identify. All of them and many more woud require the body to be removed.

Any engine work will require the engine to be removed as you simply can't access spark plugs, or any front accessories with the engine in place. This will also entrap heat even more than an original style Cobra.

The huge slab sides below the doors just ruin the look for me and the overall size just looks wrong in a lot of ways.

Just my 2.5 cent's worth.

Bob

[Bartruff1]

Keep the C5....buy a used Superformance ...buy some real estate with the balance.... drive the Corvette over to Wenatchee (in any weather but snow) and I will show you some epic Cobra roads in the sunny part of the state.

[itstock]

I would say that the simplicity is gone with that car. If you want a track dedicated car, there are just more proven ways to go. You're going to need a team to work on that car...or an unreal amount of dedication (and time that you won't have).

If you want the mix of modern and vintage, for that money, you can pick up a Ford GT for not much more.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bartruff1

....buy a used Superformance ....

That's good advice. If he likes the looks of the FII, he'll be right at home with an SPF....

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by patrickt

That's good advice. If he likes the looks of the FII

Well, it already has TWO roll bars and I bet he can get it in biege................

[REAL 1]

Oh! Snap!

[kkosche]

I appreciate the advice, opinions and council. I have actively listened . . . Here are a few comments to much of the above.

1. I thought the pedestrian comment on the FGT would arouse a response. While I agree wholeheartedly with the value retention of FGT (very, very impressive) . . the performance specifications are closer to a modern day Z06 than a ZL1. No longer a top tier super car. Rare, great value retention, impressive performance and fantastic looks, attention getter, etc . . . but the performance specifications just are not that impressive compared so many other choices, below the $150K.

2. Given the FII's underpinnings, it would be an even debate as to road course work (assuming rear wheel drive) with any rear wheel drive super car. The underpinnings are just amazing.

3. Comment about working on the thing. Very good point. While I consider myself pretty handy with a wrench. I have to admit, I think I would be out of my league with the FII, given how it is constructed.

4. Agree that it comes down to what one wants. . . and maybe that is where I am struggling the most with. . . my driving skills are adequate to keep the C5 on the road which has 470 RWHP . . but I am by no means an accomplished driver.

5. $150K is just a lot of cake. Yes I could afford it . . . however it is not like this wouldn't put a serious dent in the family savings. The opportunity cost of $150K, and value retention are a big concern of mine.

6. Comment about keeping the C5 and buying a Cobra that more closely resembles the Cobra of old . . . is sound council. . . enjoy what the Cobra was meant to be . . . more raw.

I do sincerely appreciate the dialog, debate and input. . . . I came to this forum because I was unsure of a FII decision and wanted honest, candid feedback. I got that, I am listening and I am thankful.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by kkosche

I appreciate the advice, opinions and council. I have actively listened . . . Here are a few comments to much of the above.

1. I thought the pedestrian comment on the FGT would arouse a response. While I agree wholeheartedly with the value retention of FGT (very, very impressive) . . the performance specifications are closer to a modern day Z06 than a ZL1. No longer a top tier super car. Rare, great value retention, impressive performance and fantastic looks, attention getter, etc . . . but the performance specifications just are not that impressive compared so many other choices, below the $150K.

2. Given the FII's underpinnings, it would be an even debate as to road course work (assuming rear wheel drive) with any rear wheel drive super car. The underpinnings are just amazing.

3. Comment about working on the thing. Very good point. While I consider myself pretty handy with a wrench. I have to admit, I think I would be out of my league with the FII, given how it is constructed.

4. Agree that it comes down to what one wants. . . and maybe that is where I am struggling the most with. . . my driving skills are adequate to keep the C5 on the road which has 470 RWHP . . but I am by no means an accomplished driver.

5. $150K is just a lot of cake. Yes I could afford it . . . however it is not like this wouldn't put a serious dent in the family savings. The opportunity cost of $150K, and value retention are a big concern of mine.

6. Comment about keeping the C5 and buying a Cobra that more closely resembles the Cobra of old . . . is sound council. . . enjoy what the Cobra was meant to be . . . more raw.

I do sincerely appreciate the dialog, debate and input. . . . I came to this forum because I was unsure of a FII decision and wanted honest, candid feedback. I got that, I am listening and I am thankful.

F11 Aero = non existent Think GT's don't handle, check this Scott Fraser 3rd Run Saturday - YouTube

[REAL 1]

The bar on performance always moves forward. If this is your sole criteria the goal line is always moving on you and you will forever be chasing the latest thing.

There is no one I know of personally that can drive a FGT to it's full potential on the street moreless a road course. Do those guys exist? Yes, but by and large they are professional or very seasoned talented track guys. This applies to the Z06, GT3, Porsche GTS, Viper, GT-R, 430, 360 Scud, ZR1, GT500, ZL1 or any other true performance car.

My point is unless you are really racing (and if you were the car wouldn't remain stock anyway) the incremental jumps in performance are wasted on mere mortals and come down to "bragging" rights.

Buy what you love or as a friend once said to me "moves your soul" and you won't constantly be chasing the moving goal line of performance around every year or every other year.

As far as the FII is concerned, if you love the chasis that much (it is a very nice peice) I would recommend just buying a Series I. It's a real Shelby, it's a very rare and limited Shelby, its the only Shelby that Carroll/SAI built and designed from a clean sheet of paper himself, you can buy in at around $100K and my bet is that it will become a collector item in years to come. That would be my play if I loved the Series one chasis that much.

[kkosche]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

F11 Aero = non existent Think GT's don't handle, check this Scott Fraser 3rd Run Saturday - YouTube

I don't recall saying, "GT's don't handle". . . . but if we are going to solely base wether or not a car is a top tier super car purely on video evidence . . . should this car also be considered a super car?

Gremlin AMC 7 second Car!!! Great Lakes Dragaway 5/24/08 Horsepower X .Com - YouTube


Also . . . Mr. Wingard has delivered 3 of the FII's and references are available to the serious buyer. . . . and I did sit in one the other weekend . . . so I am not sure what to make about the "non existent" comment.

As I stated previously FGT's . . great car and fantastic value retention. . . just no longer makes it into the top tier of super cars. . . as the line has moved up and to the right.

[kkosche]

Originally Posted by REAL 1

The bar on performance always moves forward. If this is your sole criteria the goal line is always moving on you and you will forever be chasing the latest thing.

There is no one I know of personally that can drive a FGT to it's full potential on the street moreless a road course. Do those guys exist? Yes, but by and large they are professional or very seasoned talented track guys. This applies to the Z06, GT3, Porsche GTS, Viper, GT-R, 430, 360 Scud, ZR1, GT500, ZL1 or any other true performance car.

My point is unless you are really racing (and if you were the car wouldn't remain stock anyway) the incremental jumps in performance are wasted on mere mortals and come down to "bragging" rights.

Buy what you love or as a friend once said to me "moves your soul" and you won't constantly be chasing the moving goal line of performance around every year or every other year.

As far as the FII is concerned, if you love the chasis that much (it is a very nice peice) I would recommend just buying a Series I. It's a real Shelby, it's a very rare and limited Shelby, its the only Shelby that Carroll/SAI built and designed from a clean sheet of paper himself, you can buy in at around $100K and my bet is that it will become a collector item in years to come. That would be my play if I loved the Series one chasis that much.

IMHO, your quote about "moves your soul" is the most insightful thus far in this thread. Thank you.

As to the Series I . . . 4.0 liter Olds motor at 330 HP? Just could bring myself to drop a $100K on that. Don't really care for the lines of the car either.

The thing I struggle most about the FII is that it really is unique. Part Shelby (chassis) . . not a Cobra . . Cobra Like body . . In the end, I think it is a car to chase ultimate performance . . which I think the FII does a credible job doing . . but in the end "ultimate performance" is a fools errand. . .

All this dialog has me thinking that keeping the C5 is the answer . . and keeping an eye out for the right Cobra tribute / replica. . . and going back to driving school to sharpen some skills.