Ethanol fuel

rpatton3 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-22-2012, 10:38 AM

I have never been a fan of vehicles and people and livestock consuming the same crop.

See "Sad Cow" link: Ethanol spurring new cases of sad cow | CowboyByte

Russell

lovehamr · #2 (**permalink**) 10-22-2012, 01:24 PM

You can't fix stupid. All you can do is vote it out and Cali ain't gonna vote out the stupid.

rpatton3 · #3 (**permalink**) 10-22-2012, 11:01 PM

Will my lawn mower hate me if I use winter gas? What about summer gas in a snowmobile?

Is this treason?

rpatton3 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-22-2012, 11:02 PM

Will my lawn mower hate me if I use winter gas? What about summer gas in a snowmobile?

Is this treason?

rpatton3 · #5 (**permalink**) 10-22-2012, 11:07 PM

Will my lawn mower hate me if I use winter gas? What about summer gas in a snowmobile?

Is this treason?

WardL · #6 (**permalink**) 10-23-2012, 01:19 AM

Your lawn mower will run fine on winter gas. Your snowmobile may not start very well on summer gas if it is very cold outside. If it starts on summer gas, it will probable run ok.

The use of ethanol has very little to do with clean air or the EPA. It is all about the corn lobby buying the US Congress in 2005. Congress passed a bipartisan law to require more and more ethanol in gasoline. Bush signed it. Obama had nothing to do with it. Modern day automobiles do not require ethanol in gasoline to produce lower exhaust emissions. Excellent example of the best government money can buy.

lovehamr · #7 (**permalink**) 10-23-2012, 07:59 AM

Ward, who said anything about Obama? Gettin' a little sensitive?

rpatton3 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-23-2012, 04:25 PM

Is "winter gas" cheaper to produce? NASCAR fuel dosn't sit around for months; hence the abundance of fuel stabilizers for customers and ethanol free fuels at marinas.

Strangely, farmer's co-ops usually are a good place to get ethanol free gasoline. Maybe that is for small equipment like tillers or small, seasonal use or old equipment.

I am not crazy about adding the plethora of fuel additives like gas treatment, fuel injection cleaner, octane booster, fuel stabilizer and ethanol treatment solutions.

I think I have found a source for 93 ethanol-free fuel on pure-gas.org.

Thanks for letting me rant!

G-Pete · #9 (**permalink**) 10-24-2012, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpatton3

NASCAR fuel dosn't sit around for months; hence the abundance of fuel stabilizers and ethanol free fuels at marinas.

Sorry, wrong assumption. The NASCAR fuel have a shelf life of 5 years, for home use 10 years.
These fuels are pure and have no additives in there.
Now they starting that ethanol crap, to play nice and get not restricted by the EPA.

The refineries mix,
Water
Additive to stabilize the water/gas mix
Additive to keep the water from freezing
Ethanol
Additive to stabilize the ethanol/gas mix
Anti knock additives
Fuel coloring
Additive to stabilize the coloring/gas mix

........and the list goes on.

The bottom line is, it is just bad gas. If they would be leave it alone how it comes from the tower - the engines would run better and longer.

The profit would be not as much - because the additives, water and ethanol are a good source to delude cheap a perfect product.

This is experience speaking not hear say.

G-Pete · #10 (**permalink**) 10-24-2012, 08:33 AM

Oh, one more thought...

here are guys who buy engines in the $8K to $10K range - why not buy race gas to keep the engines clean and happy. It's about $8 a gallon....

rpatton3 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-24-2012, 09:45 AM

I stand corrected. If I have mislead anybody, I apologize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by G-Pete

Sorry, wrong assumption. The NASCAR fuel have a shelf life of 5 years, for home use 10 years.
These fuels are pure and have no additives in there.
Now they starting that ethanol crap, to play nice and get not restricted by the EPA.

The refineries mix,
Water
Additive to stabilize the water/gas mix
Additive to keep the water from freezing
Ethanol
Additive to stabilize the ethanol/gas mix
Anti knock additives
Fuel coloring
Additive to stabilize the coloring/gas mix

........and the list goes on.

The bottom line is, it is just bad gas. If they would be leave it alone how it comes from the tower - the engines would run better and longer.

The profit would be not as much - because the additives, water and ethanol are a good source to delude cheap a perfect product.

This is experience speaking not hear say.

rpatton3 · #12 (**permalink**) 10-24-2012, 05:57 PM

E15 Fuel

Fleet managers call for EPA rethink on E15 fuel | BrighterEnergy.org

Fleet managers seem to dislike this stuff.

We try to use ethanol free fuel in our 2002 Thunderbird that just turned over 5,000 miles.

I hope I can get a full tank of real gasoline in the Backdraft before we quit driving it in the cold weather.

G-Pete · #13 (**permalink**) 10-25-2012, 08:42 AM

Now another thought,
in Germany they quit to sell ethanol containing gasoline. The drivers just don't want to buy it.

Please read here:

German Buyer Strike Stops Ethanol | The Truth About Cars

Even Greenpeace stated ethanol used in gasoline is BAD for the environment.

rpatton3 · #14 (**permalink**) 10-25-2012, 12:34 PM

Good for them!

Sorta like a boycott? We may be too far gone!

I like good news like this.

Russell

Bob In Ct · #15 (**permalink**) 10-25-2012, 08:28 PM

Ethanol (Ethyl Alcohol) has always been bad science, but the farmers in Iowa love the fact that they got Congress to mandate the stuff in gasoline. I would have to bet that everyone in Congress is either a lawyer or a business person, if a few of them had degrees in chemistry (like yours truly) we might not have to put up with this stupidity.

Bob

rpatton3 · #16 (**permalink**) 10-25-2012, 09:18 PM

I guess the reason farmers co-ops and marinas sell ethanol free fuel might be because the intended use is not on highways. I no longer have any crop duster friends using low lead 100 octane avgas.

The FBO at our airport was great to sell jet fuel during an ice storm and subsequent power outage but I just don't have the nerve to ask for avgas.

Do cows need a catalytic converter? Afterburner? Why waste the methane?
It burns cleaner than lots of fuels. Seriously, we could capture methane from old landfills and use the free methane for something productive.

WardL · #17 (**permalink**) 11-18-2012, 11:45 PM

You might consider NASCAR engines are completely rebuilt after each race. NASCAR has much different needs than any street car. Some of the additives in fuels are designed to keep deposits out of the engines. I have to disagree with G-Pete in that the refinery does not add water to fuels. There will be traces of water in all fuel due to processing, but when the fuel leaves the refinery it should be "dry". Perhaps we are missuderstanding each other by the definition of the refinery and the truck loading terminal. Ethanol is almost always added to gasoline at the terminal where the tanker trucks are loaded for delivery to the retail site. Many refineries have truck loading terminals, but there are many terminals not close to a refinery. The blending of ethanol into gasoline adds a lot more dissolved water in gasoline.

The driver and car (tires, power, etc) have more to do with sucess on the weekend track than switching from retail premium fuel to super duper racing fuel. This is particularly so in an over-powered Cobra. I'll take my $4/gallon premium anytime over $8/gallon racing fuel.

Ralphy · #18 (**permalink**) 11-19-2012, 06:19 AM

A few weeks back I was given a copy of Grassroots Motorsports, December 2012. It contains an article titled, The Fuel Truth. They used an SCCA 1990 Miata with a 2001 long block, built by Kevin Boswell. A C Street Prepared Autocross Class car.

They tuned and dyno tested these fuels. With the following HP/Torque numbers.

Quick Trip 87 E10
135/117

Hyperfuels 93 EO No Alcohol
134/122

Quick Trip 93 E10
136/124

Shell URT 100 Racing Fuel
137/123

Shell URT 105 Racing Fuel
137/124

Hyperfuels E85 85% Ethanol Alcohol
143/128

VP M1 Racing Methanol Alcohol
160/140

There were very small increases in any primary gasoline based fuels. Methanol scored the highest while E85 finished second. Which I think shows performance wise, run the lowest price fuel that works efficiently in your motor. Unless you desire to run alcohol. Higher octane fuels do increase fuel mileage.

Ralphy

G-Pete · #19 (**permalink**) 11-19-2012, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WardL

Some of the additives in fuels are designed to keep deposits out of the engines.

Ward, I believed that for some years - until I started to look behind the curtain of the "Fuel Sales Pitch Additive".
After I talked to some petrol chemical engineers my mind changed.

Over the years I watched the fuel get worse and worse. Deposits in engines even they fine tuned fuel injected.
These engines (150K +) look in the inside bad - like a carb engine with 100k on the clock never had an tuneup and was planted in a 1977 truck.

Today's engines are pretty sophisticated, but they do not burn much cleaner because of the bad fuel.
What the engine management does, is to recirculate some of the unburned gases and burn it one more time in the CAT. Thus they produce less emissions - that's all.

I experimented with different fuels quite a bit. My lawn mover and generator runs on Coleman white gas and they start at first pull.

Some of my 2-stroke engines cost close to $1K - they only get the racing fuel because they stay clean and run reliable, not because performance.

You should see the difference of deposits between mine and the exact same engines running with pump gas.

Here is a clip to explain why I like reliable engines...

(Two 85CC 25 inch propellers)

G-Pete's P-38M - YouTube

rpatton3 · #20 (**permalink**) 11-19-2012, 03:43 PM

40% of the entire U.S. corn crop goes to ethanol. Several governors (INCLUDING MINE) petitioned EPA to get ethanol waiver. It was denied but I have found 93 octane ethanol free fuel just down the road.

Marinas also sell ethanol free fuel because of seasonal use and storage.

Enjoy Thanksgiving!