Carroll Shelby

[Nedsel]

Let's be fair about the fact that many of the "427" Cobras came with the 428 cubic-inch engine: the promotional literature at the time was clear on this issue, and it is likely the local salesmen who were to blame when an owner claimed he didn't know he wasn't buying a car with a 427 in it. Even the shipping invoices noted "428 engine."

[Dangerous Doug]

Don't think the 427SO/428PI was due to smog changes. I think Shelby just couldn't procure enough 427SO's from Ford to meet demand. Manufacturing issues, if I recall correctly. Those in the know please step in if this is not correct.

My one interaction with Carroll Shelby was pleasant. I brought a Cobra book to Laguna Seca for signing, and stood near the end of the line as Shelby dutifully signed his names to scraps of paper in endless repetition. His assistant saw that I had actually brought a book for signing (and, more than likely was wearing a Cobra Hat) and cut the line off right behind me. Though exhausted, he graciously signed my book and was very appreciative to end with a fan.

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD

[Nedsel]

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD[/quote]

Well said, Doug.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

Also, read in a book about how the 1967 427 model was misrepresented to buyers (they used 428 lesser hp engines). Anyone know the story behind this?!? This is all new to me and isn't really portraying Shelby in the best light.

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I must say that is very disappointing to hear that a man with all of Shelby's abilities and driving/engineering prowess would resort to such tactics. Almost makes it seem like an unseemly used car salesman...

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I do think it is very misleading and borderline unethical to sell a car known to have a 427 engine and named 427 Cobra with anything but a true 427...
.... I was/am still a bit surprised that a man so revered in his field had these ethical blemishes.

Beating the same dead query three times in a row, despite explanations, makes me believe you are driving an agenda, not seeking wisdom and truth.

Not a popular tactic around here.

For what it's worth, from one who was there in the 60's...
The 428 in the 427 Cobra pretty much meant nothing to the average buyer.
Hey? ....just like "Spinal Tap," ...428 was one more than 427.

Like...it went to eleven.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by computerworks

Beating the same dead query three times in a row, despite explanations, makes me believe you are driving an agenda, not seeking wisdom and truth.

Not a popular tactic around here.

For what it's worth, from one who was there in the 60's...
The 428 in the 427 Cobra pretty much meant nothing to the average buyer.
Hey? ....just like "Spinal Tap," ...428 was one more than 427.

Like...it went to eleven.

Wisdom and truth?!?

Wow. Really?!?

So there have been those who offered varying explanations/excuses, those who do not want a hero to be questioned, and those who think he was less than perfect.


I was hoping for some counterpoint explanations or further understanding of why Shelby would do such things and with the VIN Fraud received little other than that he was "creative" and a bit of a salesman. With the 428 issue, I read this in a book that glorifies Shelby and again was curious. Found a couple different reasons that started to sound like excuses but in the end maybe the 428 issue wasn't such a big deal.

Sorry to have questioned your messiah as your reply seems very "cultish" to me. I have no agenda, other than to learn as much as I can about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now. Again, I was very surprised to read about the VIN fraud and the 428 issue and was looking to better understand it rather than excuse it away. Like I said, I am new to ownership and this forum and thought that some perspective may help. I was really looking for reasons to mitigate or even dismiss these incidents. In the end, I think that the 428 issue may be explainable although somewhat strange and the other issue of VIN fraud not as much.

Thank you to all those who were kind enough to explain their perspectives and offer some good reading material! I have placed my order for the Shelby Registry book and will likely seek out a few others.

Since it seems a good number of people want to quickly sweep this under the rug, as someone else stated, let’s just talk cars as it seems that discussing Shelby in any light less than hero is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by Nedsel

Frankly, I get annoyed by the vilification of Mr. Shelby by those who have had no personal or business dealings with him. Read Rinsey Mill's biography and get a feel for the whole person. There are people that vilify him, and many, many more that personally knew the man and loved the guy.

I hope I'm measured the same grace when I've passed.
Cheers,
DD

Well said, Doug.[/quote]

I will seek out this biography, thanks!

For the record, I was not trying to villify him nor saint him. Seems that maybe there is a black and white perception of where one must stand?

I only can wish that I would have had the opportunity to meet him at this point, unfortunately...

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by Dwight

my list of books about Shelby

Shelby Cobra Fifty Years by Colin Comer

The Complete Book Of Shelby Automobiles, Shelby Cobras, Mustangs, and Super Snakes by Colin Comer

Ford GT 40 & GT Ultimate Portfolio 1964-2006 complied by R M Clarke

Shelby GT 40 by Dave Friedman

Cobra The Shelby American Original Archives 1962-1965 by Dave Friedman

Shelby Racer For The Street Mustang by Randy Leffingwell

Shelby Cobra Gold Portfolio 1962-1969 complied by R M Clarke

Go Like Hell by A.J. B.A.IME

Shelby The Man. The Cars. The Legend by Wallace A. Wyss

World Registry Of Cobras & GT 40s 4TH Edition

As you read the stories about Shelby you look for the author that can separate the facts from legend. That's hard for the authors to do with Carroll Shelby's legend.

I enjoy all the stories! Fact or Legend.

Shelby was a super salesman! That's one of the qualities that made him great. He was who he was and because of that he became a legend. Not a perfect man but no one is.

Long live the Legend

Dwight

Thanks Dwight much apprciated list! All great sports figures seem to have a little legend seasoned in! ;-)

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

.... is going to bring out this kind of silly retort post.

If you are referring to my post as a silly retort, that is a bit of a failure in judgement.

Sorry, I ain't buying your explanation.

"...about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now." seems a little hard to swallow.

If it's true, do some homework and come back with your opinions.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by computerworks

If you are referring to my post as a silly retort, that is a bit of a failure in judgement.

Sorry, I ain't buying your explanation.

"...about a man that I only heard about in passing prior to now." seems a little hard to swallow.

If it's true, do some homework and come back with your opinions.

That's what I am trying to do...

What? do you think I am a covert Ferrari or Vette owner?!? :-D

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

Like I said, I am new to ownership

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

[computerworks]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

So, specifically, what do you own?

Hello from Detroit

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

So, specifically, what do you own?

As for the rest, some of us have been around the cars for 30+ years, since you are "new to this", you have already come across as someone with a chip on his shoulder and is not who he says he is.

So again, I'll ask, what Shelby product do you own?


Bill S.

PS: There was never any "VIN FRAUD", Ford engine production had issues producing the 427 sideoiler engines and substituted the 428CJ in it's place. All are well documented with their factory invoices. All are also extremely well documented in the SAAC Registry I pointed you to. You want to learn everything you can about the cars, that is the only book I would suggest you purchase right now.

I own a A&C Kit Replica as I cannot afford an original Cobra.

I don't have a chip at all, seems some are very very defensive here. Wikipedia describes VIN fraud that I was refering to (not the 428 issues)
here:

Counterfeit Cobras

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times blew the lid off a Carroll Shelby scheme[10] to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter [11] forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database [12] or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[14] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and 92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

AC Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I should have known better than to post this thread. Oh well...

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

I own a A&C Kit Replica as I cannot afford an original Cobra.

I don't have a chip at all, seems some are very very defensive here. Wikipedia describes VIN fraud that I was refering to (not the 428 issues)
here:

Counterfeit Cobras

In 1993 the Los Angeles Times blew the lid off a Carroll Shelby scheme[10] to "Counterfeit" his own cars. With the price of an original 427 c.i. Cobra skyrocketing, Shelby had, by his own written declaration executed under penalty of perjury, caused the California Department of Motor Vehicles (the government agency responsible for titling vehicles and issuing operator permits) to utter [11] forty-three "Duplicate Titles" for vehicles that did not officially exist in company records. A letter from AC Cars confirmed the fact that the chassis numbers Shelby had obtained titles for were never manufactured, at least by AC Cars. Only fifty-five 427 c.i. Cobras had been originally produced out of a block of serial numbers reserved for 100 vehicles. Shelby had taken advantage of a loophole in the California system that allowed one to obtain a duplicate title for a vehicle only on a written declaration, without the vehicle identification number appearing in the DMV's database [12] or the declarant ever presenting an actual vehicle for inspection.[13] Shelby later admitted[14] that the chassis had been manufactured in 1991 and 92 by McCluskey Ltd, an engineering firm in Torrance, California, and were not authentic AC chassis.

AC Cobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I guess I should have known better than to post this thread. Oh well...

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

This is why I posted this here... To better understand but at this point I don't think we can be very productive. As a couple others have offered some good book recommendations I will follow-up on some of those.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Using a legal loophole is not VIN fraud, the fraud was when CS stated that he "found 100 original, unused chassis's in the back of his warehouse" when in fact they were newly produced chassis's.

Wilkpedia is only as accurate as the person who typed the description in as should never be taken 100% at face value.


Bill S.

On a side note, I just took a look at your GT500 pic. Wow! Beautiful!! Is that the original color?!?

[Nedsel]

C'mon, guys, lighten up. Everyone knows Carroll was as much a devious SOB as he was a creative genius. So he had two sides, and played the one he felt like using depending on the circumstances. That's not news and it shouldn't be grounds for angst.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by saturnkk

On a side note, I just took a look at your GT500 pic. Wow! Beautiful!! Is that the original color?!?

Yup, original Grabber Orange.

As for books, the SAAC Registry is the only one you need right now, the rest make for good reading material (mostly outdated), but that is about it.

How about posting some pictures of your A&C Cobra.


Bill S.

[saturnkk]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Yup, original Grabber Orange.

As for books, the SAAC Registry is the only one you need right now, the rest make for good reading material (mostly outdated), but that is about it.

How about posting some pictures of your A&C Cobra.


Bill S.

I mailed my check today for the SAAC book but I think I want to pick-up the biography too.

It is winter here and I haven't gotten any good pics yet. Driveway has ice/snow. Will post some "good" ones in the spring. I have one I took with my cell phone when I first brought it home. I'll post that later.

Color is awesome on your GT500! I imagine it is a fairly rare color?

[Dangerous Doug]

Saturnkk: Didn't mean for you to think I was referring to you. There are plenty of people on this forum who own Cobra and who have taken a vociferous dislike of Carroll Shelby, though they have never known or dealt with the man. They just haven't spoken up, yet. That is what I find wearisome.

On the chassis/VIN issue: I think he had some leftover registration paperwork, and had some chassis built---and tried to make it look like these were leftover cars. Truly, more than a lapse of good judgment. Definitely a flaw in the life.

Messiah? No. Interesting and colorful person, with a racing career and magnetic personality beyond the abilities of most? Certainly.

There are no hero worshippers here. But flawed as he may have been, the balance is tipped far to the opposite in terms of having earned my respect and admiration.

In reading the biography today, it turns out that Carroll put out a fire on an Allard he was driving by pissing on the carburetor---in his first international race! Now, if THAT doesn't earn your respect, or at least chuckle and not take things too seriously...

"Carroll Shelby: The Authorized Biography" by Rinsey Mills. I got my copy from Cobranda.

Cheers,
DD

[Dangerous Doug]

Search

For all: This is a really good read. Quite fun. Enjoy!

DD