Pre-oiler question

[ERA Chas]

Both Clayton and Bill E's advice echoes what I wrote pages ago. You don't have any compelling need for either type of oil enhancement.
And I highly regard Brent and his advice, I just don't think he's installed any of these in an ERA.
I gave you specific reasons why it's just not an elegant or wise solution for an ERA. And creates further problems for routine maintenance.
I bought an Accusump with the same ideas as you cherish. After plotting the installation with the pieces in hand (not just the instruction sheet) , I decided against it. And a talk with my machinist (a hardcore racer) taught me what Jerry is telling you.
Trying to save you $400 on stuff that will eventually sit on your shelf. This is 27 years with the same car advice. And the same 550HP 427 still going strong after 2 decades.
You're NOT going to trash your $20K engine.
You'd be better advised to learn how to pull your distributor and prime the way I and several others have told you. As Jerry states-that's of limited value as well.
You're making this a lot harder than it is.

[patrickt]

Uhhh, what if I just ran a 240v line to my mechanical oil pump and just kinda forced it to spin over with a big blast of current? Seems like that would do the trick....

[blykins]

No, I havent put one in an ERA, but I still think its a good idea. If you ever watched the oil pressure gauge after you changed oil in another vehicle, it doesn't move for a bit until the engine gets going. Whether or not there was oil there before or not really is not apropo. It's the same situation with an engine that has not been started for months, I'm not sure how much oil is still sitting on the bearings after that amount of time.

As for valve springs, I've often had the same thoughts, but a spring manufacturer will tell you that they should not plastically deform unless they are exposed to great amounts of heat.

AL, not sure what the pound foolish comment was about, but these all aluminum FEs are not cheap and if that's what a guy wants, that's his own prerogative...

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

If you ever watched the oil pressure gauge after you changed oil in another vehicle, it doesn't move for a bit until the engine gets going.

Which is exactly why I crank it for a few seconds, with the ignition disabled, if it's been sitting for a while, and when I see the needle blip up some, only then do I enable the ignition and fire it up. I don't see how that could possibly put any wear at all on the engine. And considering that, if we're lucky, we'll do that a couple to three times a year at most, we'll all be dead before we've even hit a hundred of those types of cranks.

[Jerry Clayton]

The biggest issue is after an oil change--the time it takes to fill the system, lines, cooler,FILTER, etc-----soooooooo, the guys who change there oil 4 or 5 times a year are doing more harm than good-Just ask Al Gore!!!!!

Brent---the last people you want to ask about valve springs are the valve spring people----also----take that several hundred pound pressure, multiply it by the rocker ratio, and just imagine the load on the parts---rocker/shaft/stud/pushrod/lifter---and if roller lifter--the needle bearings in the roller(probably the highest stresses per unit of surface) and the side loading on the lifter boss/body if not directly on the nose of the cam--

[AL427SBF]

blykins
AL, not sure what the pound foolish comment was about, but these all aluminum FEs are not cheap and if that's what a guy wants, that's his own prerogative...

No argument there, said with some degree of jest. For what it's worth, I'm a pound moron by that criteria, all aluminum spec motor with top shelf components will put you well over $20K. With some things, being thrifty ain't in the cards - even knowing return on investment is poor. It's nice to be in a position to be pound foolish once in a while

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

The biggest issue is after an oil change--the time it takes to fill the system, lines, cooler,FILTER, etc-----soooooooo, the guys who change there oil 4 or 5 times a year are doing more harm than good-Just ask Al Gore!!!!!

Brent---the last people you want to ask about valve springs are the valve spring people----also----take that several hundred pound pressure, multiply it by the rocker ratio, and just imagine the load on the parts---rocker/shaft/stud/pushrod/lifter---and if roller lifter--the needle bearings in the roller(probably the highest stresses per unit of surface) and the side loading on the lifter boss/body if not directly on the nose of the cam--

I guess I may see it a little differently...

If a rocker arm, stud, pushrod, etc., can't hold a static load, then they won't hold the dynamic loads plus fatigue stress that they're under, know what I mean?

As for the springs, I agree with you wholeheartedly in terms of speaking to the spring guys looking for advice. However, spring steel should not lose its temper unless it's overheated. I've seen spring pressures take an initial dive, but that's just after they get their first shot of a heated load and settle in.

And that raises another good point....would there be any residual oil supply on the valvetrain parts after sitting for months? You may wheel the engine over until the needle starts to move, but I'm pretty sure the lifters have not pumped up at that point, nor has oil gotten to the pushrods, rocker arms, etc.

Regardless, I don't see any negatives of a pre-oiler, unless it is just a pain in the booty to mount one under the hood.

Al, we all deserve to be pound foolish every once in awhile.

[olddog]

A lot of good points made here. Certainly things that get there oil slung onto them from the crank do not benefit form any type of pre-oiling.

I too spin the engine to build oil pressure before turning on the ignition, but I have no delusions. It takes no load off of the valve train. Without pulling the plugs, it doesn't do a whole lot for the bottom end bearings. About all it does is take the shock of ignition away.

I have to agree with Blykins (it sure doesn't hurt anything). It doesn't solve every problem, but it does fill the bearings. It also has to shorten the time that it would normally take to sling oil to the other parts. In short, every single part is going to see oil sooner.

Now I saw a newly assembled engine get drove around the block on assembly lube, as the oil pump shaft was missing. Although not disassembled and inspected, the engine had no ill effects.

It does bug me on starting an engine that has sat all winter. If I had $20K in an engine it would bother me even more.

BTW - the accusump sure does have an added benefit of supplying oil when the oil is slung away from the pickup. We know that can happen with these cars.

[Silversmith]

Lippy, mounting the accumulator was no problem for me. Mine sits where a under car exhaust muffler would sit. It is piped via SS braded hose. there is plenty of room in your ERA for one. Maintance is the same as before the accumulator install. Oil pan, top end work, all the same as before. If I had to R&R the engine, the only disconnect point for the oiling system would be the original filter point. KISS, remember. Stick with Brents susgestions, you won't go wrong

[mdross1]

Gave this a lot of thought,a very good idea but just a little overkill.Think about antique motors that were splash fed (no oil pump and of course no oil filter)and how long they lasted with babbet bearings no less.My fix was use synthetic oil, it resists heat a lot better they claim it stays in place better.

[blykins]

I don't know of many antique motors with 10:5 compression, 600 hp, roller lifters with needle bearings, etc. Those old motors would run with strips of leather behind the bearings....hahaha.

[lippy]

So here are more specifics on the use case: What if I used an oil like Joe Gibbs Synthetic Hot Rod Oil (synthetic + high zinc content), and started the car even during the worst conditions 1x/mo and mostly more often?

[Chilibit]

While assiduously avoiding a judgment call, at some point we leave the realm of protecting the motor and enter the realm of protecting the owner. Where that is for each of us is different. All of the paths discussed lead to a motor that will likely outlast all of us. Virtually every moving piece of my motor that could be acquired in forged form was purchased that way. Do I need it? Absolutely no way. Almost ridiculous. It wasn't about the motor--it was about me.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

So here are more specifics on the use case: What if I used an oil like Joe Gibbs Synthetic Hot Rod Oil (synthetic + high zinc content), and started the car even during the worst conditions 1x/mo and mostly more often?

Fine. I prefer Brad Penn, and they make a big deal about their "cling factor" for precisely that reason. They say: This unique base oil causes our Penn Grade 1®High Performance Oil to cling tenaciously to engine parts to minimize wear during high engine torque loading and/or periods of heavily stressed operation such as those experienced during competition. This same oil ‘cling’ helps prevent ‘dry-start’ conditions to minimize wear even after the engine has been sitting idle for extended periods. Source: Brad Penn and Dry Starts

I'm sure Joe Gibbs is just as good, and lots of guys like it; I just prefer Brad Penn... and I like the green color, too.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by lippy

So here are more specifics on the use case: What if I used an oil like Joe Gibbs Synthetic Hot Rod Oil (synthetic + high zinc content), and started the car even during the worst conditions 1x/mo and mostly more often?

My oil of choice is Joe Gibbs, also highly recommended by Keith Craft, can't beat the zinc! Still use an Accusump, no downside imo. Forget the pre-oiling debate for a minute, it also maintains oil pressure through hard cornering - and 1 day you will want to give that a try

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

Forget the pre-oiling debate for a minute, it also maintains oil pressure through hard cornering - and 1 day you will want to give that a try

So does a road-race designed oil pan-and a dry sump for that matter.

[patrickt]

<sigh> ... if the issue you're going for is the dry start thing, then all the comparisons I've read between Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs give the slight edge to Brad Penn on that point. For example, this is fairly typical, from Circle Track: Pennsylvania crude oil, which is the base stock for Brad Penn Racing Oils, has a naturally occurring wetting agent that enables the oil to stay put and resist slinging for an extended period of time. Engine Lubricants - Solving The Flat-Tappet Puzzle - Circle Track Magazine Now, is all of the stuff that I read true? Who knows. Basically, if you just do what Chas tells you to do you'll be fine.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by patrickt

<sigh> ... if the issue you're going for is the dry start thing, then all the comparisons I've read between Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs give the slight edge to Brad Penn on that point. For example, this is fairly typical, from Circle Track: Pennsylvania crude oil, which is the base stock for Brad Penn Racing Oils, has a naturally occurring wetting agent that enables the oil to stay put and resist slinging for an extended period of time. Engine Lubricants - Solving The Flat-Tappet Puzzle - Circle Track Magazine Now, is all of the stuff that I read true? Who knows. Basically, if you just do what Chas tells you to do you'll be fine.

Let's assume that Brad Penn and Joe Gibbs are roughly equal and better than standard oil for infrequently used cars because of their zinc content. Does the use of one of those oils do the trick for a car that is only started once per month, or would a pre oiler/accumulator provide any "dry start" benefits?

[patrickt]

For once every three months, I say no difference whatsoever. I absolutely, positively believe that. And the way I piss money away on this hobby, if I had thought even slightly differently, I'd have one on mine.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

So does a road-race designed oil pan-and a dry sump for that matter.

Particularly for an ERA (ref post #15)