Pre-oiler question

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

The places that a pre oiler will lubercate(bearings) will have oil on them any way. Just because it will pressurize the oil galley down to the MAIN bearings does not mean that it will get any oil to the rod bearings(only IFFFFFFFFF they happen to be perfectly aligned with the oil galley (in the crank) holes----------
They will NOT put any oil on the cylinder bores, wrist pins etc and in most cases will do little for the cam shaft or lifter bases--------

Agree with ya on this......

My race car sat at least 2 months without running and I decided to check/set the valves on the solid roller cam on a cold engine first,then hot.Pulled the valve covers,turned the engine over with a remote starter button and I had oil coming out of the push rods with only a few revolutions and less than 2 seconds of turning the engine over with the starter......I'm using a Melling High Performance oil pump,standard pressure/standard volume....and it does have a 8 quart road race pan/remote filter and oil cooler!!!!!!!!
I have an oil pressure warning light above the oil pressure gauge,it is set on 20 psi....until the pressure gets to 21 psi, the red light is ON...When starting the car after it has sat sometimes 2 to 3 months, I crank it over with the ignition OFF,when the oil pressure light goes off,I flip the ignition switch on and fire the engine.....I've never really timed it, but I'd bet it takes no more than 2 seconds of cranking to get past 20 psi......

David

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by blykins

I don't know of many antique motors with 10:5 compression, 600 hp, roller lifters with needle bearings, etc. Those old motors would run with strips of leather behind the bearings....hahaha.

Your right blykins was trying to make a point.Think then about compression ignition diesel engines that are started every day like their counterpart gas engines and how long these motors last.
One example Amsoil advertizes is a trucker with bypass filtering went 409,000 miles on one oil change,course he had his oil analyzed periodically.
I do believe in the Accusump or something similiar for racing and for those that feel the need on their pride and joys.
As many engines as I have built or rebuilt and seen the condition some of them were in while tearing them down know for a fact what works and what is overkill especially on the street.Race motors presents another whole ball of wax.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

...a car that is only started once per month,

Let's not forget the rear, trans, clutch face, brakes, contacts, and relays too. If you're going to do it right, jack the rear up and put it on stands, then start up the engine, let the clutch in and out a bit, run it through the gears a few times, put it in reverse, too. Pump the brakes while you're at it. OK, hit the turn signals, horn, and turn the steering wheel back and forth. Feel free to say "vroom, vroom, screeaachhhh, vroom, vroom" while you're doing it.

No, I don't do any of this either... but I have met people who have claimed that their clutch disk somehow rusted to their flywheel, over an extended period, and they couldn't break it loose. I think that's about as likely as excessive wear resulting from letting the car sit over the winter. But remember, I stick mine in a car bag with desiccant, which keeps it in a nice, arid bubble inside your garage -- I do believe in doing that.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by mdross1

Your right blykins was trying to make a point.Think then about compression ignition diesel engines that are started every day like their counterpart gas engines and how long these motors last.
One example Amsoil advertizes is a trucker with bypass filtering went 409,000 miles on one oil change,course he had his oil analyzed periodically.
I do believe in the Accusump or something similiar for racing and for those that feel the need on their pride and joys.
As many engines as I have built or rebuilt and seen the condition some of them were in while tearing them down know for a fact what works and what is overkill especially on the street.Race motors presents another whole ball of wax.

I would imagine that a big diesel engine spends 90% of its time running anyway, so start-up wear is greatly decreased. These guys will put 400k miles on an engine in a couple of years, so it's a totally different application.

Regardless, if I were to spend that much money on a car, and that much money on an engine, the $400 bucks or so to eliminate any chance of wear just seems beneficial to me.

I see the resounding theme of that oil pressure builds up in a few seconds or so, but what happens in that few seconds before the oil gets there? Kinda hard to say and I'm sure it varies from engine to engine.

Cheap insurance.

I really don't know what would be the "negative" of buying a pre-oiler....cost? Fitment? The aggravation of activating it before you fire the motor? If it were offered for free, would you all still pass on it? Or would you say, "Yeah, give it to me."

From time to time I find myself in discussions on various forums about engine building practices. I have expressed concern on different times about using Plastigage to build an engine, only to find myself in a heated argument about criticizing others' engine building practices. Even got myself kicked off of another forum for sticking to my opinion....hahaha

Regardless, the words I kept hearing were: "If I were to buy an engine from you Brent, I would expect you to check the clearances with a mic and bore mic and map them out. However, I can't afford to buy a mic, so I use Plastigage."

It's the same thing here....I'm offering my opinion, but if you guys were to buy an assembled car/engine package from me (if I did that sort of thing), there would not be much said about it if I stuck an Accusump in there. So where is the line drawn?

[Ron61]

I think the temperatures of where you live have a lot to do with that too. When it is summer and 118° here I could just let mine roll out in the driveway and start it and within a few seconds the oil would be everywhere in the engine and the temperatures would be climbing. And I raced mine but I never did put an oil accumulator on it because in this case it was just extra weight and something else to go wrong.

Partrickt,

Didn't your car get heavy carrying it in that bag?

Ron

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Ron61

Partrickt,

Didn't your car get heavy carrying it in that bag?

Ron

If given the choice between a bag and a pre-oiler, give me the bag any day....

[blykins]

Oh brother.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by blykins

Oh brother.

... and my bag keeps Jerry's mouse from setting up shop in the side pipes, munching on the wiring, shooting pool in the heads, etc.

[blykins]

If my engine only made 238 hp, I'd be more worried about the wiring too.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

For once every three months, I say no difference whatsoever. I absolutely, positively believe that. And the way I piss money away on this hobby, if I had thought even slightly differently, I'd have one on mine.

Install one or don't.

However, I'm the poster child for letting cars sit for long periods and I've never had a problem whatsoever. In fact, I had installed 3 or 4 engines in my '66 Vette over a span of 25 years and sold the old engines w/o any issues whatsoever after the buyers popped open the oil pan and valve covers. And never heard from them again.

Everyone that I've ever run into (engine builders, install shop, etc.) said it was superfluous.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Everyone that I've ever run into (engine builders, install shop, etc.) said it was superfluous.

... and RodKnock pisses away far more money than I.

[blykins]

Hope all of this helps you, Jeff.....

[DAVID GAGNARD]

My opinion is just that,my opinion, but it is based on what I've seen in the past, 2 instances come to mind:
#1:when I dirt track raced in the early 90's,at the end of the 7 month long season, I would pull the engine and go thru it,freshen it up for the upcoming season....one year I ended up running some races at other tracks after our season was over, by then hunting season had started so I parked the race car.4 months later I pulled the engine to freshen it,when I tore it down there was oil clinging/hanging on every part,it was literally dripping from the cam/rods/crank,basically everywhere.........Back then I used 10/30 Valvoline with a can of STP oil additive added in on every oil change, can't say the STP had anything to do with this, but it couldn't hurt...
#2: About that same time frame, I bought a 65 Mustang,289,2 barrell engine in it for parts,pulled the engine with unkown mileage and sat it under my shed. took the parts I needed off the car and put everything else up for sale...I know this engine had not been run in at least one year, probably longer...well, a guy comes by to buy it, he was checking it out and pulled the dipstick, it was full of jet black oil, then he wanted to pull a valve cover,I told him to have at it, then he wanted to turn the engine over to make sure it wasn't frozen, I got out a 1/2 drive rachet and the correct size socket for the crank bolt,the guy turned the engine over three times by hand and on the third rpm, there was oil coming out of the pushrods........I was suprised to say the least and he bought the engine right there.....

Putting in a pre-oiler is fine if one wants one,we're just saying it is not as needed as some may believe....how many cars are on the road today???? how many sit for weeks or months without being started???? How many come from the manufacter with a pre-oiler??????

David

[Blue Cobra]

I went with a pre-oiler but didn't need it for hard corners which eat tires, brakes and hubs, and starve the sump of oil (although my Canton baffled road racing oil pan also helps tremendously), but rather for pre-oiling after sitting for 9-months of PacNW winter.

Since oil starvation was not my concern, did not go with the bulky space consuming accumulation approach, like Accusump (429SJC already consumes more than it fair share of engine compartment), but rather a model I borrowed from aviation. A 54PSI electric oil pump. I pull the oil into the pump from the reservoir in my Canton 8 quart oil pan, and pump it directly into the dual stage oil filter using one of the two "IN' ports.

This way I can pressurize the whole oli system as long as I like, and comes in very handy while cruising the strip (or Seattle traffic) and sitting at low idle for some time. I flip the switch and have constant 54PSI regardless of the RPMs.

Cheers!
Blue Cobra

[blykins]

When I mock up an engine to degree the cam, check piston/valve clearance, etc., etc., I'll use an old set of mock-up bearings and squirt some oil on both halves with an oil can, or rub on some assembly lube before I drop the crank in, and before I put the rods on the crank. You'll be surprised at how much oil flows out of the bearing and runs down the main cap, or flows out of the rod bearing. I have pulled those bearings back out with wipe marks on them....now mind you they weren't worn, but there was contact....and that was from a low number of revolutions, with no load. If there is no flow, there is no resulting load support.

After everything is cleaned, the crank is polished, and I go to fully assemble with the intended bearings, I will saturate the bearings with assembly lube (I use Royal Purple and it's very viscous), but I'm still shocked at how much squirts out and runs down the main caps when I'm rolling the engine over to do different things.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Blue Cobra

I flip the switch and have constant 54PSI regardless of the RPMs.

I'll admit, that's pretty cool.

[mdross1]

Originally Posted by blykins

When I mock up an engine to degree the cam, check piston/valve clearance, etc., etc., I'll use an old set of mock-up bearings and squirt some oil on both halves with an oil can, or rub on some assembly lube before I drop the crank in, and before I put the rods on the crank. You'll be surprised at how much oil flows out of the bearing and runs down the main cap, or flows out of the rod bearing. I have pulled those bearings back out with wipe marks on them....now mind you they weren't worn, but there was contact....and that was from a low number of revolutions, with no load. If there is no flow, there is no resulting load support.

After everything is cleaned, the crank is polished, and I go to fully assemble with the intended bearings, I will saturate the bearings with assembly lube (I use Royal Purple and it's very viscous), but I'm still shocked at how much squirts out and runs down the main caps when I'm rolling the engine over to do different things.

Have always built all my motors and drive trains and like you anal about clearances,assembly lube and all that goes with making things right as they possibly can be.
For a long time considered the preoiler certainly can see the benefit if one was offered to use you know it would be plumbed up.
Again in all the years of pulling motors apart and knowing how some were cared for realize the preoilers are not needed for most.No doubt they have a place if I were road racing all the time would certainly have one in my car.

[blykins]

I will edit this post because it came across harsher than what I intended...

What I meant to say was that for a thread that would benefit from some detailed analysis and proof.....there wasn't much. It just seemed like everyone was fighting for their own opinion.

I hopped over to Speedtalk and did some searches to hear what some other builders were saying. The general consensus there was the same thing here: it certainly doesn't hurt anything and in high horsepower cars where acceleration and cornering is a concern, it can actually help. What really raised a flag was that Jeff told me that the car would possibly sit for months at a time. I've seen sticky cam lube fall off of parts in a couple weeks' time, so I know that oil will slide off easily. I'm not under the impression that you can walk away from a car, walk back in a season, and oil is just poised and waiting at the pushrod tips, lifters, bearings, etc.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

What I meant to say was that for a thread that would benefit from some detailed analysis and proof.....there wasn't much. It just seemed like everyone was fighting for their own opinion.

I hopped over to Speedtalk and did some searches to hear what some other builders were saying. The general consensus there was the same thing here: it certainly doesn't hurt anything and in high horsepower cars where acceleration and cornering is a concern, it can actually help.

Brent, another forum with engine builders isn't detailed analysis and proof. There is none available. The OP's original question will naturally have drawn opinions.

The part is cheap and the installation relatively simple, so Lippy, do it or don't it. You won't find proof here.

For me, my cars sit. You take the coil wire off and crank. Your preoiled, then start the car. With a preoiler, there's additional connections and something else to potentially go wrong.

I have an expensive engine, my engines have always sat for long periods and I'm not worried. But whatever.

[blykins]

I didn't say that Speedtalk would offer a detailed analysis....I was just looking for data.

I worked for a Valvoline engine lab where we ran engines for extensive periods of time, then tore them down and rated the bearings. However, we didn't have a fixture for dry starts. I was looking for that kind of data.

But you're echoing what we've all been stating....it's just a matter of opinion and it certainly doesn't hurt anything.

I will say this...

Just because someone runs an engine for years and years and "doesn't have a problem" doesn't lend much data for experience. I had a pair of Federal Mogul bearings de-laminate in a BBC that I built. I don't know if a piece of trash passed through or what, but I had no indication that anything was wrong at all on the dyno. No increase in oil temperature, no decrease in oil pressure, nada. I didn't know anything until I checked the filter. My gut says that engine would probably have run for a long time and no one would have ever known the difference.

But, opinions are like.........blah blah blah.....