Pre-oiler question

[lippy]

I'm trying to decide whether or not to use a pre-oiler for my ERA Cobra. The benefits to me seem pretty obvious (and Brent, who is building my engine agrees).

So my questions are:
(1) Any real reason *not* to do this, aside from the cost?
(2) For people that have done this, what are the pros/cons? Happy you did it?
(3) Do you need a remote oil location kit (expensive) for one of these, or is there a good way to do it without?
(4) What size is best for a 427 SO, stroked to 482?
(5) What is the best location?
(6) Is Accusump the way to go?

Thanks!

[Silversmith]

1. None, do it!


2. I like 12 qts. better than 5 or 8 depending on pan type. Also 20 to 50 psi @ start up, depending on oil pump pressure at prior shut down. It's just the ticket, when your FE has been sitting awhile.

3. My accumulator is piped to a seperate location out of the engine bay. The total piping/hoses provide a extra 1qt. total; for the system.

4. I have a Iron block/head (C5AE-H) HM built FE 427 sideoiler, pushing the old double nickel. 500+HP & 500+TQ. I'm sure your chosen system will serve your stroked 482, just as well as mine does for me. If properly installed.

5. My accumulator is located under the passenger (under carrage) seat. It works well on the street & the track. As I don't do much (knock on wood!) off roading.

6. I use a Morroso 3 qt. accumulator, with a 8.5 qt. baffled pan w/windage tray. The piping also adds 1 qt. This gives me a total of 12+ qts. at all times. Even when I'm driving hard into a corner, or pushing 7 grand. But Im sure whatever type accumulator you chose will serve you well.


I hope this helps! By the way great choice on your ride Not that I'm
Biased or anything

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Silversmith

...pushing 7 grand.

Pushing 7 grand what??? Pianos?:
An iron 427 with iron heads making 500 / 500??
All done at 5200.
Twelve quarts? Who told you you need that? You endurance race?
H & M were great engine builders, not magicians.
Lippy, watch from whom you take advice.

[bobcowan]

OEM engines don't use a pre-oiler, and they last well over 100K miles on routine maintenance alone. Personally, I don't see the need for one.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by Silversmith

1. None, do it!


2. I like 12 qts. better than 5 or 8 depending on pan type. Also 20 to 50 psi @ start up, depending on oil pump pressure at prior shut down. It's just the ticket, when your FE has been sitting awhile.

3. My accumulator is piped to a seperate location out of the engine bay. The total piping/hoses provide a extra 1qt. total; for the system.

4. I have a Iron block/head (C5AE-H) HM built FE 427 sideoiler, pushing the old double nickel. 500+HP & 500+TQ. I'm sure your chosen system will serve your stroked 482, just as well as mine does for me. If properly installed.

5. My accumulator is located under the passenger (under carrage) seat. It works well on the street & the track. As I don't do much (knock on wood!) off roading.

6. I use a Morroso 3 qt. accumulator, with a 8.5 qt. baffled pan w/windage tray. The piping also adds 1 qt. This gives me a total of 12+ qts. at all times. Even when I'm driving hard into a corner, or pushing 7 grand. But Im sure whatever type accumulator you chose will serve you well.


I hope this helps! By the way great choice on your ride Not that I'm
Biased or anything

Thanks, that's really helpful. Could you help me understand how you piped it from the engine? Did you tap off the remote oil kit, or use the oil cooler piping?

[patrickt]

If the sole purpose is to pressurize your system because your car sits a long time between start-ups, then I don't think you need it.

[Silversmith]

Chas, I'm sure you have more knowlage about FE's than I. I was stating a opinon about accumulators. The engine I have pulls very strong approching 7000 rpm. While it's true my AC dosen't pull like CSX 3116 that I grew up in did; even though both AC's have & had the same engine type & builder. CSX 3116 did have two 715 holley dbl. pumpers, a different cam & 12.5:1 compression to my single dbl. pumper, a like cam & less compression. Also, CSX 3116 did weigh almost 500lbs less than my era. But I assure you that my sideoiler will pull very strong @ 7000rpm. In fact, if you wish to come to Maine I will be happy to show you. Once the snow melts that is. Bring your ride, we'll take a romp up on the Kangamangus Hwy. in the White mountains. Then romp down to the coast & pig out on Lobsta's. As to my accumulator & my recomendation? I feel extremely secure with 12+ qts. I have heard it said, when it come to real power "there is no replacement for cubic inches." Well, I feel the same way about oil & oil pressure when high Hp is involved, more is better!. Thats my opinon, & I'm sticking with it. By the way, Holmon Moody is still around, and they were/are magicians!

[Silversmith]

Lippy, The accumulator, the oil cooler, engine, piping etc.. It's all one system. Think of your oil flow moving like electrons in a electrical series circuit; from negitive to postive. Hot oil moves out of the engine through the cooler, through the accumulator back to the engine. When the engine is shut down the accumulator stores the oil @ pressure until called for. When your ready to restart, supply voltage to the accumulator, open the valve, build pressure & start engine. the engine never runs w/out oil pressure. The accumulator can be mounted anywhere, in the engine bay or out. I pefer mine out. For me, I feel it keeps the oil cooler during hot driving conditions. A friend of mine who races AC's alot, has his accumulator sitting in the place of the passenger seat! A BB engine in a AC produces alot of heat! Cooler oil is better oil IMO. The accumulator system you investagate/buy. Will/should have quality instructions on the instillation procedure. Plus, I can think of no better engine builder (except mabe HM) than Brent. To help you sort through the accumulator choices, & best location for installation. Good Luck M8

[lippy]

Originally Posted by Silversmith

Lippy, The accumulator, the oil cooler, engine, piping etc.. It's all one system. Think of your oil flow moving like electrons in a electrical series circuit; from negitive to postive. Hot oil moves out of the engine through the cooler, through the accumulator back to the engine. When the engine is shut down the accumulator stores the oil @ pressure until called for. When your ready to restart, supply voltage to the accumulator, open the valve, build pressure & start engine. the engine never runs w/out oil pressure. The accumulator can be mounted anywhere, in the engine bay or out. I pefer mine out. For me, I feel it keeps the oil cooler during hot driving conditions. A friend of mine who races AC's alot, has his accumulator sitting in the place of the passenger seat! A BB engine in a AC produces alot of heat! Cooler oil is better oil IMO. The accumulator system you investagate/buy. Will/should have quality instructions on the instillation procedure. Plus, I can think of no better engine builder (except mabe HM) than Brent. To help you sort through the accumulator choices, & best location for installation. Good Luck M8

Thanks again! My question really is: where did you plumb the accumulator system into the existing engines oil system? On the oil cooler, on a remote filter block, or somewhere else? If I do this I'm trying to figure out if I need to get the remote oil location kit from ERA.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by bobcowan

OEM engines don't use a pre-oiler, and they last well over 100K miles on routine maintenance alone. Personally, I don't see the need for one.

That's a good point, but I use my daily driver every day, and realistically there will be times my Cobra may sit for a month between drives.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by lippy

Thanks again! My question really is: where did you plumb the accumulator system into the existing engines oil system? On the oil cooler, on a remote filter block, or somewhere else? If I do this I'm trying to figure out if I need to get the remote oil location kit from ERA.

I think you just want an Accusump. That's ok, there's nothing wrong with that. Just remember, a lot of us have cars, and have had them over the years, that only get started every few months or so, and they suffer no ill effects. My Cobra sits, untouched, from Thanksgiving to Easter. Then I just crank it a little bit until I see the oil gauge needle move, turn on the ignition, and fire her up. But, if you want an Accusump, then put in an Accusump. Here's how you might do it in an ERA:

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by lippy

Thanks again! My question really is: where did you plumb the accumulator system into the existing engines oil system? On the oil cooler, on a remote filter block, or somewhere else? If I do this I'm trying to figure out if I need to get the remote oil location kit from ERA.

Here is the Accusump installation instructions. That will help you figure out the plumbing. If you want to keep the filter on the block, there is a sandwich adaptor with a thermostat that mounts to the block.

Canton Racing Products - Accusump Tech

[Silversmith]

Lippy, my system start & returns @ the original filter point on the long block via a sandwich block. Dallas has a good point on the previous post follow that & you'll do fine. Accusump is a good system, just add what you feeel comfortable with. Many AC owners don't use any system @ all & do just fine.
Good Luck.

[patrickt]

Didn't somebody around here have an accusump explode last year, or the year before? I remember somebody had some sort of problem....

[ERA Chas]

Lippy, Pat's point is well taken-unless you track the car.
I'm sure Brent would agree-nice to have but problematic.
Here's why I say that:
In the late 90's, I bought a complete Accusump (2 qt.), hoses and mechanical valve and began the planning of the installation. I intended track use and long lay-ups and was convinced I 'needed' one.
The pic Pat shows highlights the first problem-many guys mount them on the front X-member. The first time you have to check / change timing, you will hate yourself. Access to the damper and it's bolt is lost. Not good for adjusting solid lifters. Sure you can bump the starter to open and close the correct valves but there are other times when you need to change position by hand.
So being a genius I figured I'd mount the tank behind the driver seat, next to the tunnel. Then run the line forward against the tunnel, to the mechanical valve at the front edge of my seat-close enough to reach down and open/close it. Then more line forward, out the trans tunnel, along the block side to the block adapter. You don't want a remote filter because in ERA's there very little room for hoses and fittings going up and down. Access to your water pump, a leaking rad hose and the fuel line from a mechanical pump is now punishing.
In short it's an overengineered, impractical non-necessity, unless you race. In the end I decided against adding 1000 fittings of all geometry and all the complexity. I sold the unit to a pal with a different car.
If you're a hands-on owner, you'll regret it for negligible benefit. If you pay to have work done, you'll pay much more (hours) while the guy has to remove half your oil system to do simple maintenance on your car.
And the way to live without one is easy. Many guys like Pat live just fine without it. If you lay the car up for 2-3 months the easy thing to do if you're worried is remove the distributor and with a speed wrench, spin the oil driveshaft and you can get 40 psi on the gauge easy. Then start in the normal manner and run it.
I found out I worried for nothing as that's the way I maintained the motor and on track (road course, autocross, drag strip) my Canton road race pan did a great job of keeping oil pressure up. If you hole the block, having oil pumping in isn't gonna save you much until you shut it off.
In short-you probably don't need the expense and complexity. A mild 482 at 600HP is not a highly stressed unit. And you certainly don't need 12 qts of oil so you can sleep tight at night.

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by lippy

I'm trying to decide whether or not to use a pre-oiler for my ERA Cobra. The benefits to me seem pretty obvious (and Brent, who is building my engine agrees).

So my questions are:
(1) Any real reason *not* to do this, aside from the cost?
(2) For people that have done this, what are the pros/cons? Happy you did it?
(3) Do you need a remote oil location kit (expensive) for one of these, or is there a good way to do it without?
(4) What size is best for a 427 SO, stroked to 482?
(5) What is the best location?
(6) Is Accusump the way to go?

Thanks!

No reason not to, Accusump is a good way to go and a popular choice here, Moroso also good and there are others you can google. A 1 QRT system will work just fine for pre-oiling, if you want some "reserve" for maintaining good oil flow through hard cornering then get the 3 QRT system. Go to the Accusump website and read recommended accumulator size for your intended application.

[Jerry Clayton]

KISS

keep it simple s--------------------------------

Remember that for every corner that the accusump keeps your oil pressure up, It also takes away while it refills down that straight after the corner while you are running it to 7000 between the gears----
Oh, bet nobody ever noticed their oil pressure while turning 7000 -----------

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

KISS

keep it simple s--------------------------------

Remember that for every corner that the accusump keeps your oil pressure up, It also takes away while it refills down that straight after the corner while you are running it to 7000 between the gears----
Oh, bet nobody ever noticed their oil pressure while turning 7000 -----------

Definitely apply KISS, and on everything you do with these machines. I've always been an advocate of using the highest volume oil pan you can fit, when shock compression puts you in contact with asphalt backoff a little

[Chilibit]

I thought the OP's question was about pre-lubrication as distinct from accumulators and systems designed to prevent oil starvation. Such simple prelubers exist and we used to use them on turbo motors before the advent of water cooled bearings. We ran them till we heard pressure bog the pump on start up and ran them on a timer at shut down. Today it is focused on preventing a dry start. The reservoir is your existing oil pan. Simple and effective in my experience.

Ciao

[AL427SBF]

Originally Posted by Chilibit

I thought the OP's question was about pre-lubrication as distinct from accumulators and systems designed to prevent oil starvation. Such simple prelubers exist and we used to use them on turbo motors before the advent of water cooled bearings. We ran them till we heard pressure bog the pump on start up and ran them on a timer at shut down. Today it is focused on preventing a dry start. The reservoir is your existing oil pan. Simple and effective in my experience.

Ciao

With Accusump you get both, from their website -
Our Accusump Oil Accumulators deliver oil before starting to eliminate dry start scuffing (pre-oiling) and discharge oil during low oil pressure surges to protect against engine damage during demanding racing conditions.

I think most pre-lubers fill that dual roll, but if pre-oiling is all you want then the 1 QRT accumulator is sufficient (more than enough actually).